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Good CR
Topic Started: 26th December 2007 - 04:47 PM (557 Views)
Kievien
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Chieftain
Is it a good option to take a unit of Clanrats of about 25- 30 models with full command, then put a Chieftain BSB in it with a Banner of the Swarm, giving you a total of 7 before wounds are made?

MUTATE : Just realised you could do the same by giving 25 Stormvermin a Banner of the Swarm for a total CR of 6

Or worse/better

25 Stormvermin with Warbanner + CHieftain BSB with Banner of the Swarm for a total of 8

This changes my question to ... what combo is the best?
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Sebrent
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In Warhammer, there is no best. So no more asking that question
:P

Obviously, it is better to have better stats and equipment and 2 more CR, but that unit of Stormvermin is more expensive than that unit of Clanrats. You could look at it as the unit of Stormvermin vs the unit of Clanrats + a support unit (slaves, nightrunners, ratling gun, etc.)

Obviously, the Stormvermin unit is stronger on a straight 1v1, but Warhammer isn't played with units in vacuums.
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Kievien
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Chieftain
I meant in quality vs. price. Which would be the best option... :)
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hakoMike
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More grey every day.
I just take "which is best" questions as a solicitation for opinion. ;)

I think I'm confused a bit.... how did you get to 7 on the clanrats. I see three ranks plus standard plus outnumber (presumably... I've run up against lots of units that outnumbered 25 or 30 clanrats) and one for the swarm banner. The BSB in the unit does not give an additional CR bonus that is cumulative with a unit standard, unless it's been changed in 7th edition and I never noticed.

As far as "best" goes, I like to base my army composition far more on narrative quality than game mechanics. The Moulder stuff tends to get deployed close together because the other rats wouldn't like being around the rat ogres and giant rats as much. The Stormvermin tend to be in the middle, or pushing the bell. I'd say give a really big unit of clanrats the bsb/swarm banner, then field stormvermin with the umbranner or banner of burning hatred (if you haven't given it to plague monks.)
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Kievien
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Chieftain
Quote:
 
I think I'm confused a bit.... how did you get to 7 on the clanrats. I see three ranks plus standard plus outnumber (presumably... I've run up against lots of units that outnumbered 25 or 30 clanrats) and one for the swarm banner. The BSB in the unit does not give an additional CR bonus that is cumulative with a unit standard, unless it's been changed in 7th edition and I never noticed.


It does stack, so it's

3 Ranks, 2 x Outnumber, Standard + BSB...

Thanks for the answer ;)
Any other opinions are welcome too.
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Garan


I don’t think it’s a fair question to ask without giving us more information about the combat or clarifying in some other way.

Are we talking about a 1v1 head of charge? Then perhaps the Stormvermin would be better as their higher armor save (provided they have shields) end up saving them a few wounds thus letting their CR have more of an effect.

Same goes for being charged I think.

If we are talking about a flank charge where you will not be taking quite as few hits back and perhaps will avoid hits form the character in the front rank I would say Clanrats are your best option being quite a bit cheaper.

However just strait up CR per points spent I think that we can all agree that 3 CR for 40pts of slaves can't be beat.

- Garan
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Kievien
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Chieftain
Just up front one on one ;)
I think overall its a pretty good combo in all 3 ways, but I keep wondering if its worth all the points youll be spending.
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

What army will you be facing? What kind of general commands that army?

It's nice to have the 'Killer Combo of Combat Resolution' (tm), but if you're facing a gunline, it really, REALLY won't do you any good. So, although I personally (and propably others as well) use it with success, that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone in any situation... Even a 1-on-1 combat.

Greetz
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Kievien
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Chieftain
I mostly play against High Elves / Wood Elves and Vampire Counts and Dwarfs.
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

Well, against Vampire Counts, the tactic of out-CR-ing them could work quite well, due to their strength not lying particular in magic dominance/ shooting.

Wood Elves would be a pain in the royal butt, as they're more a hit-and-run force, avoiding a head-on charge with a massed unit like this.

Dwarfs would be a sheer horror, cause they'll blast the living daylights out of your most expensive units from turn 1 on.

High Elves, I'm not too sure about, as I haven't faced them in a long, LONG while...

All in all, you could do it in some cases, but I (personally) wouldn't make it a permanent addition to your force, cause after a couple of battles, it'll be turning into a big target for the shooting of your opponent.

Greetz
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Kievien
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Chieftain
So...from what I understand... It is a nice surprise but it shouldnt be used to often? :)
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Sebrent
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While Vinz is correct, those with a good bit of shooting will target your unit, there are things not mentioned pertaining to this:

#1: the chieftain with BSB and standard is all your opponent sees, though they will likely figure out the obvious fact that your BSB is a magic banner

#2: the chieftain is fully capable of moving from one unit to another if the unit it is in gets "shot up"

#3: you can always screen your unit(s) with slaves (good grief, we're a horde army!) ... though guess weapons are notorious for getting around this by "over-guessing" the range to targets that they do have LOS to

#4: we have access to the stormbanner

#5: we have gutter runner/tunneler teams

#6: wood elves can be cornered by a horde army. the secret is to simply keep advancing your army as a whole till they have no more room to bait & flee
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Stinkhair
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Dabbling GM. Clanrat loon. 6th Edition Aficionado. Bitter.

As an example of how well this can work;

Yesterday a unit of dwarf warriors with a hero charged some slaves, broke them, and charged into my stormvermin unit, botched their attacks, and killed no stormvermin.

My warlord with his dwarf-slayer [Insert sniggering] sliced two dwarves in half, while the stormvermin did nothing.

Combat resolution worked out like so:


Dwarves - Two Ranks. Standard. - 3

Skaven - Three Ranks. Standard. Outnumber. Banner of the Swarm. Battle Standard. Warbanner. Two Kills. - 10 ^_^


Dwarves left needing an insane courage roll to hold. ^_^ They break and get run over. My opponent's expression was priceless... :D

Yes, it's very eggs-in-one basket, and works better in an army like mine where there's so many damn units that it can slip past in the mass.... but when it works.... ^_^
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bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
some thing i want to try which is along these lines... i want to give the BSB the warbanner and then keep him close to the grey seer at the start of the game, thought is if i see a combat that is goint to be a close run thing skitterleap the BSB into the back of the unit and hopefully sway the tide to the skaven side..

downside is that the warbanner could be fairly useless if i dont get skitterleap off

The banner of the swarm and the warbanner would be a deadly combo... may need to buy my self some storm vermin.. oh wait they dont fit into my armies theme (which is the collection of rejects and misfits that no one else wanted)
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

bakfire the experimenter
Dec 30 2007, 11:08 PM
[...] thought is if i see a combat that is goint to be a close run thing skitterleap the BSB into the back of the unit and hopefully sway the tide to the skaven side..

*ponders*... Can you actually do that?

I mean, although you don't move the BSB into direct contact with an enemy (unit), I'd say it would be somewhat of a dodgy trick to pull off. Of course, seeing how I don't have the armybook with me, it could be perfectly legal, but it does raise some questions in my opinion.

Greetz
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