| Defense against terror causing flyers; (Dragons,Demon Princes, Winged Treemen) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18th December 2007 - 04:56 AM (363 Views) | |
| Everything Is Expendable | 18th December 2007 - 04:56 AM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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As a Skaven player I don't seem to have anything to go up against these units. Most anti-armour units such as Jezzails, WFT and Ratling Guns get 1 shot at killing them before they get terrored, charge terrored, or breathed on. While the Terror per se doesn't hit me too badly as my fully ranked units make use of Warlord leadership, all the subsidiaries such as single units of giant rats, Jezzails and pwgs tend to run around screaming whenever these units are near. Swarms seem to be my only answer, or plague monks, perhaps. The swarms could tie down say a dragon character for half a combat round till i can get a single unit to charge the flitting flier and hopefully win by pure CR. However, as long as the fliers are placed properly, they will be consistently out of charge line of sight and range while always threatening a rank negating flank charge (it's good that demon princes are only US4, though). Alternatively I could go the grey seer/ screaming bell route, which is a great deviation from my current horde concept, hoping to get a few good rings in or casting DeathFrenzy on anything that seems likely to run away (which means my Jezzails will charge the Winged Treeman instead of fleeing from it). It still doesn't solve the problem of getting flank burned, however. |
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| Sammy the Squid | 18th December 2007 - 05:19 AM Post #2 |
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Back to retirement!
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What is a winged treeman?!? I generally find an average unit of Clanrats or Slaves can occupy a Treeman, Giant and such for most of the game, its just when fliers are used that its a problem. The combined attacks of the rider and mount are generally enough to see off any Skaven unit, so shooting and magic is the best way... In 7th edition rules, Rat Swarms will just crumble away too quickly, so they should probably not be used. A Warlord with Fellblade should work, providing he can charge the flier, which is unusual. The other combat way is to bait with slaves or something then flank charge it, winning through static combat res alone. Stick a BSB w. Warbanner or Swarm banner in the unit (in the BACK of the unit) and the flier will probably loose by enough to make it flee. Try to position a unit so that if the flier flees, it will be wiped out immediately. But besides this, a decent round of shooting should see it off, or at least damage it enough to make it easier in combat... Hope this helps - Sammy |
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"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!" Wins/Losses/Draws Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20 Dark Elves - 44/14/8 Hochland Empire - 33/14/4 Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4 Beastmen - 50/25/2 Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!! | |
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| Zavratatar | 18th December 2007 - 07:56 AM Post #3 |
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Grey Seer
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The classic "oh crap there's a dragon on the table" -deployment strategy: 1 Plop down globardiers and other ~25pts units until the dragon is deployed. 2 Deploy the main of your army in the opposite corner of the dragon, taking care to form a box with the fronts of large regiments facing in all directions. (observation of the terrain here is a good idea, there should not be a large forest to advance behind right next to your box.) 3 Deploy your shooty bits; Jezzails, engineers, ratguns and WLC's inside this box, taking care to leave no room for a dragon to land in. 4 Shoot the skavenade out of the dragon as it advances. Charge it with any large unit that is likely to break or tie (use a champion-challenge to keep his CR at max 6) if it lands close enough. 5 Mop up the rest of the army. In smaller games vs High Elf mini-dragons this is harder, but on the other hand that dragon is made of paper. SHOOT IT! ![]() In the happy, skaven-friendly world of everything going as planned this will give you two turns of shooting on the beast or a block-charge. The stormbanner can be useful for making it walk around in the open with 6" move (and restricting it to 2d6 fleeing) but will severely hamper the shooting you try to throw at it. Magic will slide right on through though, so if you're good at rolling 13 with those warplightnings... Hope that helps! ![]() PS: Stop shooting at it if you charge it. Yes, I know we as skaven can shoot into combat. Yes, it's flashy. It also costs about 15 clanrats per wound on the dragon... Kill its support while it's busy, you can resume shooting at it when it flees or breaks your unit. |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th December 2007 - 12:04 PM Post #4 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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see i always find that censer bearers help me against dragons, i normally field 5 CB's and getting the dragon and the rider to take toughness tests. i had a discussion with a player once who said the gas wouldnt effect the rider as the rider wasnt in base to base contact with the CB's so i asked if his character had a lance or spear, when he said no i said so does that mean he cannot attack me as he is not in base to base contact? dont really know how this should work but he decided to take the toughness test (and failed). also the CB's suffer from frenzy, hatred and the censer itself gives +2 strength for the first round of combat... so mine have 2 attacks each, re-rolling failed misses for first round of combat and strength 5 for first round of combat (-2 to armour save). if im up against a non armoured character i target the character in the hopes the dragon will have to roll on the monster reaction chart. if its an armoured character i normally aim for the dragon. i have had a fully ranked up plague monk unit (20 monks) take a charge in the front from a dragon mage, win the combat and chase the dragon down. (it helps the other player failed to wound with every thing) |
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| Everything Is Expendable | 18th December 2007 - 03:10 PM Post #5 |
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Clanrat
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I have some experience similar to bakfire's, so I'll put it into use. I got charged by a dragon's RAAARGh reaction after killing the sisters of twilight. My monk unit took the charge in the front, lost the combat and got run down by the dragon. Censer bearers are indeed very good, frenzy denies the terror effect, and skirmishing 360 "free charges" (no need to measure) are quite useful to take out terror fliers. Censers are pretty rare in my army, requiring a plague monk unit per censer, yet I tend to throw them around like diamonds, always against enemy fliers and skirmishers. What if the dragon is a character ridden mount (as most are), such that it is impossible to draw it out until all your units have already been placed? Thanks for the shooting advice, Zavratatar, though it's not really my playing style And to answer Sammy's question, a winged treeman is the scariest thing one can imagine. |
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| Zavratatar | 18th December 2007 - 03:15 PM Post #6 |
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Grey Seer
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Unfortunately, I find that troops with frenzy are very, very bad at going exactly where you want them, when you want them to. Something about chasing that 40pt goblin unit for the glory of all Skavenkind... As for the fellow charging a full plague-monk block with a dragonmage, he should be slapped. Generally people who know what they are doing do not throw their expensive but fragile mages into large regiments, because they know the odds are against them. That being said, the monster reaction table is a good a hope as anything. Taking down the mage on top with lots of warplightning might, just might, stop the dragon in the middle of the table ![]() And that thing with the T-test, of course he has to take one. Your guys can target the rider in combat, of course he is in base to base... Glad to hear you managed to persuade him. ![]() Mutate: The presence of a dragon means a boatload of points is not in units. Hence you really should have more units to deploy than the owner of the dragon. I do not play a very shooty list myself either, but the setup allows my 6 jezzails and one WLC to atleast put a large dent in the beast. You say impossible, which leads me to believe you've misunderstood page 3 of the big book. He deploys his characters as the last thing he does, while you continue placing units as normal, if you have more than he does. Which, as you are playing a dragon free, non-shooting skaven army, I sure hope you do.
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| Rusty Tincanne | 18th December 2007 - 03:23 PM Post #7 |
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...you can still call me Rusty Tincanne if you want, though.
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I would say they benefit from all of that, not suffer. And the skaven book states "all models in base contact." The 6th ed. BRB (don't have the 7th still -_-) states "A monster and its rider or riders count as a single model in the same way as a calvary model, although different rules apply" (6th ed, pg103). The different rules do not mention riders being too, too separate, and the fact remains that the unmounted minis can choose to focus all their attacks on the riders, so the rider cannot be that far away, can they? Hope that helps. I know it's the old edition, but I don't think that that has changed much. My problem is that anyone who has faced PCB's in the past knows better than to tangle with them if possible. I know this is tangential to the topic. Sorry. |
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| Zavratatar | 18th December 2007 - 04:06 PM Post #8 |
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Grey Seer
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Suffer or benefit seems to be a matter of personal opinion. Me, I just can't get them to attack anything that isn't on my opponents "expendable" list... Whether the reason for this is the awesome skill of my opponents, or my own ineptitude.. we will never know.
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th December 2007 - 11:28 PM Post #9 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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for best use of my PSB's i try to work out what are likely to be the targets for my enemies expensive units and try to place my PCB's where they can help defend / persuade my opponent not to go there. normally for me the targets are my unit of clannies with the seer on the bell and my wlc so i try to palce the PSB's between them if i have to put them down before my opponents scary units. and remember just because they can move forward doesnt mean they have too. in my recent 3000 pt battle one of my units of plague monks actually moved backwards to ensure i was out of charge range and lead my enemy exactly where i wanted them. but back to the dragon / flying things WLC and warplightning are great for dealing with them, anything where you can stand a chance of killing the rider early on is great. if needs be draw it out with something tempting and cheap and then consentrate as much as you can spare on it. i have yet to try the "here have this nice unit of clan rats as an appetiser... surprise here is my assassin and no you dont get any armour saves as he has the gouger or 1 wound? no you mean D3.. weeping blades" |
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| Mormeguil | 19th December 2007 - 03:15 AM Post #10 |
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baby nurgle
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Personaly I find that it's usually work very well if I place all my skirmisher far away from the rest of my army and spread them up. In those case my opponent as to choose either to get around at my flank or he goes around and get rid of skirmisher. Now if he come to get my flank he usually can'T get two at the same time. So I usually move my warlock engineer in the unit he is menacing and then turn the whole clanrat units around to protect flank and rear. The rest of my battle lime keeps advancing. Also, storm banner is incredible. So many opponents don't expect it and end up being charged by a fully ranked clanrat unit with a Battle standard bearer in it. Now, if i'm up against a dragon that can beat a clanrat unit in the front at 2000 pts then i'm pretty much dead <_< |
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| Snik-Dead | 19th December 2007 - 03:31 AM Post #11 |
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Angry Bear-Man.
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In a 2000 point Clan Eshin army, the name for our defence against such critters is 'The DeathMaster'
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