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New high elf update = overpowered??.
Topic Started: 15th December 2007 - 11:38 AM (1,461 Views)
Aderashi
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Chieftain
Did any of you guys notice that games workshop has the tendency to overpower underpowered army's?..
At least I think so.. High elfs were Certainly one of the weakest races in the 6th edition..
So knowing that I knew that they were going to change somthinges with the new update.

So as you all know 3 months ago (or something) the rumour came that the entire army strikes first ( the elfs ) I at least was already surprised with this thing....
for example even models with great weapons strike first!!!.. giving no disadvantage to using them (except for the 2 handed)...
but hey knowing that these guys are still T3 elfs and all it should be no problem I thought.....

Then later it was noted that the high elfs (being a elite army) do NOT have to use the normal ussage of core, special, rare slots...
In stead they have almost no need for core and have almost double special, rare slots....

So yesterday I wanted to confirm my thoughts about the high elfs and I lended my friends highelf army book..
I read trough it and was shocked at the end. ( note that I also a play dark elfs ( and these guys stink compared to the new high elfs)).
All the new things they got leave a bad taste in my mouth. I mean for example a banner that adds +D6 combat resolution every round?..
A banner that adds +3 Powerdice??. Also the chariots have Str 5 At impact and have M9... And the list of all these stuff goes on and on..

I dont know the new elfs seem just cheesy as hell to me know... More so I cant find any advantage anymore in the dark elf list... these guys are totally inferior to the high elfs now.. <_<

I want to know if you guy's have the same feeling about the new highelfs or not.

-_-
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Servant of the Horned Rat
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Clanrat
I went round my mates today and i forgot my Skaven so i used his 1000 High Elves against the army he was being, 1000 Tomb Kings
WOW!!! The High Elves were awsome for a 1000 point battle to be over and done with within an half an hour was something. What i noticed what was realy deadly was that when you put a noble in a regiment of archers is that the archers hit on 1's yes 1's!!!!
Stricking first was a advantage, deadly.

High Elves can challenge anyone.

Saying that i'm looking forward to playing them with my Skaven and my up and coming Bretonnian army. :rolleyes:
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Zavratatar
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I'm missing something here. Why do the archers hit on 1's?

And remember page 27 of the Big Red Book.
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Mebob
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I'm not too sure whether or not their overpowered. but last thrusday i headed down to GW and flicked though the army book, only really looking at the army entry section.

And to be honest i was a bt confused about some of the enteries (I didnt notice the no need for core and such thing tho). But the heroes section confused me at first as it had special charectesr with their entery right next to the other non-special lord and heroes which is lame in my opinion. And they had a different entry for "Dragon mage" and to be honest, is a dragon amge jsut a mage on a dragon? And who would want a mage on a dragon? A Dragons combat skill is wasted wih a mage riding it, and if your using its combat skill, then the mage's magic powers is wasted.

Just put a prince on a Dragon, and a mage on a warhawk if you want it too fly.
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Morkskittar
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They're not overpowered. :P I've played them three times. Once I lost to them (solid loss). The other two times I MASSACRED them. They really aren't that tough. Bait and flee... they often have no choice but to charge if you set things up just right. Speed of Asuryan really isn't that bad, especially for us - we're not gonna' kill anything anyway. And as for the other things, the High Elves really needed them. :P They are still very beatable, although they are now more powerful than many of the other armies (and Dark Elves do very badly need an update :P).

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Niz'tizi'ihack
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Mebob
Dec 15 2007, 04:09 PM
And they had a different entry for "Dragon mage" and to be honest, is a dragon amge jsut a mage on a dragon? And who would want a mage on a dragon? A Dragons combat skill is wasted wih a mage riding it, and if your using its combat skill, then the mage's magic powers is wasted.

Yeah this thing looks like it is going to be really rubbish... But I've seen it in action in a Beginners game I ran.. The Dragon Mage gets fire magic and can swap his spell for Flaming Sword instead of the normal #1 on the table. He also gets an extra dice to cast fire magic. So that is Flaming Sword cast on up to 4 dice. Once he's got that off... that's 3 attacks striking first that will kill most of the time, backed up by the dragons attacks it will kill around 5 models on the turn it charges.. that's enough to take most skirmishers and Warmachines.

BTW it's not fair to compare them to Dark Elves, they are very underpowered and I'm pretty certain they will be getting done soon. I mean who hasn't seen the new cold ones model
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Queetik
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They aren't "cheesy" or overpowered at all. They just aren't completely crap anymore. ASF is nice but not game-breaking, and while having multiple dragons in an army may look scary at first, it is an "all eggs in one basket" type scenario.

You can't compare them to Dark Elves, because that's just another army in dire need of a revision.
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Bodacious
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http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/versus-high-elves/1/

:D

It seems GW had the idea that people would respond like this.... and apart from the "you should use a gunline" advice, it's a pretty decent article too.

IMO the high elves are far from unbeatable, but a lot closer to balanced now. I have yet to play against them, but I've read through a friend's book and I think that even though most of their infantry is pretty insane now (especially swordmasters :o !), they are still a very expensive army. It might be hard to take down one of their units now that they get to strike first, but once you do get one down it'll be a big chunk of their army that they can't really afford to lose. With skaven I can field more than twice the ammount of units an average high elf army has and just keep throwing expendable stuff at them until I can set op a flank charge and have whittled them down with magic and shooting. Anyway, in short: I feel pretty confident that I stand an even chance against the high elves now.
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Morkskittar
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That was an entertaining article. I thoroughly enjoyed reading that (apart from the gunline bit). :P ('Dispel all attempts at Drain Magic, unless you're a Tomb King, and then just laugh." :D). But I have a question... what on earth are bagpipes of doom? :P They're listed as a way to defeat High Elves... :unsure:

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Decker_cky
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Mormeguil
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I played against high elf a bit too and they really are not that bad. I must say always strike first is a nice solution but it still make me winge that my gutter runner and night runner are now near useless.

Still, as other people pointed all they're units are still very costly so he wil still have only 3 or 4 infantry units. The same flank and redirection tacits still work.

Now the boring points, the hero level dragon is quite a beast. Always strike first mean that anything dangerous will have a ahrd time wounding it and it get T6 so simple shotting won't cut it. That guy worry me a lot.

Another army that is pretty nasty is a lothern sea guard shooting army. Supported with a lot of caster and the re-roll spell it's incredibly devastating since. When you get in close combat you will be facing reformed sea guard that wil strike first with 3 ranks of spears and probably outnumber and banner (a Skaven horde can live but most otehr army will have a rought time).

So all in all the new high elf are not that bad but it's still bother me that the best solution is to shoot them to death.
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Snik-Dead
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Angry Bear-Man.
While I was thoroughly torn to itty bitty shreds, roasted over a cook fire and fed to some friggin' chariot lions (500 Points Clan Eshin dead, only 4 elf-things dead...), I have to say that I do not consider the new High Elves to be overpowered.

When fielding my Clan Eshin army I was... soundly thrashed and shredded, yes, but it was mainly due to never fighting Elf-things before, and particularly not expecting all of their new gear.

In my opinion, it makes for a very challenging army to fight and will influence those who play against them to get wiser and sneakier. I am already brewing up new methods for Eshin to take care of these foolish elf-things...

While my Sorcerer fears going back into battle against them, I look forward to it eagerly, because half the fun of this game is fighting against superiopr foes until you can overcome them!

KILL-KILL!!

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Sebrent
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Aderashi
Dec 15 2007, 06:38 AM
So as you all know 3 months ago (or something) the rumour came that the entire army strikes first ( the elfs ) I at least was already surprised with this thing....
for example even models with great weapons strike first!!!.. giving no disadvantage to using them (except for the 2 handed)...

First, High Elves have higher Initiative than most units, so this only really affects them when they are charged or fighting other elves.

Second, their only units with Great Weapons are the White Lions and Swordmasters ... Swordmasters already had this ability, so now it only the White Lions and Characters have been affected.

Aderashi
Dec 15 2007, 06:38 AM
In stead they have almost no need for core and have almost double special, rare slots....

Yes, they have less requirements for Core (1 less), but they also have a lot less of a choice as far as Core units go ... compare their Core selection to ours.

As for double Rare, if you look, their rare choices are bolt throwers and eagles ... both of which were "pick 2 for 1 rare slot" in their old book. So now they've just streamlined the process and kept those are rare choice, but made them each take 1 rare slot, but also doubled the rare slots... the only difference here is they can take an odd number combination of the two choices.

As for the special choices, let them take even more very expensive but fragile units, having high-priced fragile units is the weakness of elves, I'm happy that they will be taking more and making it easier to cash in on VPs against them.

Aderashi
Dec 15 2007, 06:38 AM
mean for example a banner that adds +D6 combat resolution every round?..
A banner that adds +3 Powerdice??. Also the chariots have Str 5 At impact and have M9... And the list of all these stuff goes on and on..

They had the +d6 cres and +d3 power dice banner in their previous armybook, as well as S5 M9 chariots. This is not a change from the previously "weak" high elf armybook.
Servant of the Horned Rat
Dec 15 2007, 03:48 PM
What i noticed what was realy deadly was that when you put a noble in a regiment of archers is that the archers hit on 1's yes 1's!!!!

The noble does not give their higher BS to the archers in the rest of the regiment, so the archers in the regiment will still use their BS of 4 while the noble uses his BS.
Mebob
Dec 15 2007, 04:09 PM
And they had a different entry for "Dragon mage" and to be honest, is a dragon amge jsut a mage on a dragon? And who would want a mage on a dragon? A Dragons combat skill is wasted wih a mage riding it, and if your using its combat skill, then the mage's magic powers is wasted.

I suggest you actually read through the rules for a unit before discussing it. The Dragon Mage has slightly superior stats over a regular mage for close combat, and two special rules allowing him to output more power dice than a regular mage and ensure that he can cast a spell making him good at close combat.
Mormeguil
Dec 15 2007, 08:50 PM
Now the boring points, the hero level dragon is quite a beast. Always strike first mean that anything dangerous will have a ahrd time wounding it and it get T6 so simple shotting won't cut it. That guy worry me a lot.

Do note though that the dragon does not benefit from Speed of the Asuryan ... it does not automatically strike first. Only the actual elves benefit from that special rules. No horses, dragons, eagles, lions, etc. benefit from it.
Snik-Dead
Dec 15 2007, 10:35 PM
While my Sorcerer fears going back into battle against them, I look forward to it eagerly, because half the fun of this game is fighting against superiopr foes until you can overcome them!

I love reading things like this. If you won all the time, things would get boring ... challenges are one of the spices of life :D
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lorddrakewater
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Warlord of Clan Skarrtick
Ok I have played aginst the new High Elves about 6 times now. and I have only lost to them once. that lose was mainly my own fault. They really are not that tough. ranks and flanks is the key to victory. oh and Spears, of all things. their low toughness really makes for a easy fights. the only issue I have is that no errata is out yet to clear up weither the Sea Guard get two ranks while fighting to their flank. since the High Elf book simply states that the fight in an extra rank...thinking about it I belive I found my proof. they fight in an extra rank not "file".
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

Yeh, the new HE arent that tough. They can be very nasty, but they are far from invincible. It is unfair to compare them to the DE, as they havent been revised yet. That is meant to be happening later this year, and they should then be able to take on the new HE on even ground...

One thing that no-one has brought up yet, and is possibly the worst of the new HE stuff, is that there isnt an entry that says HE BSB's cant use other mundane equipment besides armour and hand weapon. This means you can give BSB's great weapons and stuff like that, which just doesnt make sence if they are holding the banner too! Maybe this is a mistake in the printing of the rules, but looking at some of the BSB models some are holding shields, so it seems it was done on purpose, which is highly unfair to other armies BSB's...

Besides this I dont have many problems with the new rules. They look heaps nasty, but on the field of battle they don't make things that different at all. They are still fragile and break easily... Dev

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