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Tactics vs high speed foes in small table
Topic Started: 22nd November 2007 - 02:13 PM (313 Views)
Fanskaven
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Clanrat
Hi all,

I´m currently playing a tourney league in my local shop and i´m having BIG prolemas dealing with fast moving foes. I think the table is a bit small as it is 122x180 cm (48x71"). The deployment zones are 31cm(12,2") each leaving 60cm(23,62") of batleground inside. In spanish rules a normal moving 5" skaven moves 12cm so our chargesmarch moves are 1/2" shorter.

The point is that fast moving units charge my units in turn 2 and i can´t find the way to avoid it. I play large blocks 5X4 and 5X6 of skaven units so even if i mach them to my border of the table my foe only has to be a bit smart to charge me in the 2nd turn without any chance of being charged.

I´ve tried puting slaves (5X4) in front of clanrats but as i have only 1 turn for deploying the slaves forward there´s a very high chance of being charged after slaves are massacred as small table width makes it difficult to find enough space to avoid this.

Please help!!!
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Zavratatar
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Grey Seer
That sounds very standard. :) All the tables in my group and all the tables on all the tournaments i've been to have the same size.. Getting charged by horsies in turn two is just a fact of life. :) It does, of course, mean that my horde has less distance to walk against a gunline, always a good thing. :)

You could use the slaves to hold, get overrun and thus angle charges quite abrubtly away from you, then charge their flanks. This of course works best against armies that have to overrun or pursue due to frenzy etc.

The other idea is to use 1pack groups of giant rats (that's 30pts) and rush them up the table when you get first turn.

Either he marches up to threaten the rest of your army, then you can effectively block them with the ratpacks (1" away at an angle, fleeing means he catches you, so you know exactly where he will end up after it..)

Or he charges the ratpacks, and you can hold there, giving you a flank charge if he does not pursue after, or hopefully another flank charge if he does. It requires some darn tricky placement of units, though. :)

I hope that helped a little, but there really is no way to totally avoid say a wolf chariot charge (18") in turn 2 on these tables. You can, however, affect who takes the heat. :)

If this is just not working for you, lay globardier roadbumps in front of your units, hold the flank with swarms, and roll the overrunning (after they've killed the globies) units up from the side using a 8+ CombarRes unit. :)
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Skavenblight
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Chieftain
Well, lets just say that you've got it better than I do. My local shop is in a mall in downtown Toronto, so it's a little small. So, our standard size for a 2k battle is 48"x48". They also seem to insist on having 4 pieces of terrain, I once played a woodie with his extra piece of terrain, the board got a little crowded, especially since he went with many dryads and a treeman ancient.

But really there's nothing much you can do, just try and force him to charge one or one of a few select units, because with most armies, if he's got a unit charging on the second turn, it's got very minmal backup, so if you play your cards right you might be able to hold the charge and swamp it, or redirect it past you and take it out with something else.
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Vermitt Stain
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if your haveing troble charging enemy's i normaly put a unit of 20 slaves in a line with only one rank if that and when they charge them i will just flee meaning they fail charge move only half and are in my charge range.
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Tysp
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Warlord
Vermitt Stain
Nov 22 2007, 02:39 PM
if your haveing troble charging enemy's i normaly put a unit of 20 slaves in a line with only one rank if that and when they charge them i will just flee meaning they fail charge move only half and are in my charge range.

On the GW website they have tactics for drawing out enemies using slaves to charge them, and they do it in a manner where the foe is trapped either way ;)

URL - http://uk.games-workshop.com/skaven/tactics/6/
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Fanskaven
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Clanrat
Thxs all for quick answers.

If i have understanded correctly you go for a checkboard formation, alternating slaves and clanrat blocks. On my turn 1 slaves rush forward full speed to get into enemy´s charge range or block passages that could lead fast foes charging my clanrat blocks. On his turn 2 he charges my slaves and hopefully get in my charge range... Is it?

The problem i see is that by turn 3 my clanrat blocks will be flank charged by my foe´s infantry... Well we will have to deal with that later... one problem at a time.

I have already been massacred by a group of 3 chaos chariots, chaos knights aided by a chariot, silver helms + chariot, dragon princes + chariot and so on...

One of the problems is that one of the 2 units just stands in turn 2 and counter charges in turn 3 .... Any ideas for this?

Cheers

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bakfire the experimenter
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not really played a game where this has been a problem but against not fear causing enemies would a stand and shoot ratling gun not be helpfull?, march it forward turn 1 to take the charge.. you only have to cause 25% casulties to completely break the charge? - someone plase correct me if im wrong on this. as it is only one model it hopefully wont put too big a hole in your army if it fails to kill and if they over run or not you can probably anticipate both situations. the other option is plague censor bearers as the gas attack goes before impact hits for chariots, they are frenzied so you dont have to worry about fear and with the hatred for first round and +2 strength for first round they might help take the sting out of future rounds of combat
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Zavratatar
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Grey Seer
Well, you're right and you're wrong. 25% casualities is all it takes to cause a panic test in the charging unit, but if the unit passes this test you're down 60pts as the weapon will be slaughtered... (here it is worth noting that the chaos knights in question aren't exactly running around with poor leadership...)

Chariots are a nasty thing indeed. I especially loathe the goblin variety, but all types are a royal pain in the ass. Some information that might help:

1 Ratling averages 2 wounds on a T5 4+ save wagon when firing with 2 dice, on softer chariots it can take them down immediately.

The warplightning Cannon has approx. 25% chance of killing a T5 4w 4+ save chariot, not counting for misfires, and with an average range of 28" it's a lot easier to get a shot with it than with the ratling gun

One healthy dose of 9+ warp-lightning will rip 2,9 wounds into a T5 4+ save chariot.

It takes 3-5 jezzails to do one wound on a t5 chariot, depending on range.

The big problem with chariots is their mobility and charge reach; the 15" range on the ratling gun just doesn't cut it when the chariot can charge the parent unit from 18" away...

I rely on magic and the warpcannon to help me against chariots, using the 6 jezzails i field to finish one off only if i cannot shoot any tasty knights with them.

If anyone else has good tips againts chariots, let's hear it! I despise them.
(if we could have them, however...)
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Azhtabak
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Packlord Azhtabak
Dealing with fast-moving enemies as Skaven: (Warning! Written not only by me, but also on the spot - read with care)

There are two main kinds of fast-moving units, assuming you're referring to cavalry, not flyers/skirmishers, judging by your turn-two charge comment. Fast Cavalary, like pistoliers or glade riders, and Heavy Cavalry, like CoRs, Knights, et cetera.

Dealing with Heavy Cavalry:

These are probably the hardest things to deal with for us. It all really depends on whether or not you get the first turn. If you get the first turn, it will probably be fairly easy, as you have much more time to obliterate them.

If you get the first turn:

There are two main ways to do this - obliterate them before they reach you, or lure them into a beneficial combat situation. Obliterating them varies in difficulty, depending on your army structure, but essentially just consists of pointing your biggest guns/magic at them and laughing at the crater. However, be careful not to overreach yourself - there are other units in play, and if you focus too much on the cavalry, you'll probably end up having to deal with a large number of full-health ranked units breathing down your throat, not to mention perfectly intact gunlines and artillery batteries.

Another way is to lure them into a combat and butcher them. The main way is to lure them with a unit of slaves in front. Place them about 6-7" in front of you, and let the knights charge them from a reasonable distance. Then flee. Whether or not you lose the slaves, you probably now have a unit of knights standing in front of something ranked, probably clanrats, so charge it! Make sure to support it with a good hammer though - Rat Ogres are recommended more then monks, IMO, since they can open armour much better.

If they hit the unit, it's trickier - this is also the same if you can't use a lure unit, and have to take a charge. Aim to have a few units on support - again, I recommend rat ogres. If you survive the first round, then you can slam them hard in the flank, and hopefully still have a good rank bonus to help. If you lose and flee, it's harder, but you can hopefully still catch him in the rear with something strong and butcher him.

Dealing with Fast Cavalry:

Your problems with fast cavalry usually aren't getting charged, though sometimes it can be. Thankfully, if you can get them in your line of sight, then you can obliterate them fairly easily this time. Don't bother with lure-units this time - concentrate on firepower.

As you have nothing fast enough to catch fast cavalry, then the best method is usually a barrage from a ranged unit. Ratling Guns are the best IMO, as they have a reasonable range, and a very high volume of shots - WFTs generally will miss, Jezzails often don't have enough shots - and besides, you generally want them pointing at armoured units - and WLCs are far too valuable to waste on such a unit.

You can also use magic, in which case I would recommend the ever useful Warp-Lighting, as it has more than enough power to completely remove the unit. You can also use the storm daemon, which can take out most of a unit, either making it flee or effectively neutralising it. Be careful though, it can still marchblock you. Also, your characters will be needing LoS, and they're probably in ranked units, which you probably don't want to turn around!

Finally, if he does charge you with them, much the same applies as to heavy cavalry. He'll probably be in the flank, though, which could be _very_ bad depending on the units fighting power. Usually you can fight them off for a turn though, then smack them with night runners or something. It will still slow your unit down though, so you probably want it dead before it charges.#


Finally, a tactic that could apply to both, I suppose, would be ratsassins - skitterleap them into a unit, and with a good magic weapon they can hopefully cut through it. I wouldn't try it on heavy cavalry, though.

One final thing for avoiding charges - try positioning a vanguard unit at an angle in front of you. If the opponent isn't concentrating, then they'll often fail a charge by clipping this unit while wheeling, stopping them reaching your main unit, or at least drawing it into the fight.



Wow, that was long...probably all nonsense, but oh well... :unsure:

*scurries back into shadows.*
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