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have been reading the rule book; some ideas of rules to exploit
Topic Started: 2nd November 2007 - 10:27 AM (588 Views)
bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
before i get too far into this i want to make clear that i dont plan on using anything in this thread in friendly games against "weaker opponents", i might point things out to them to help them learn but im not going to enforce them.

the reasoning behind this.. i have been playing more and more games lately and i must be improving as my opponents who havent really changed are starting to call on more and more rules from the book, ie over running into another combat and fighting again. so i have decided to up my game..

1) you cannot get within 1" of a model unless you are charging them.. this could be usefull to block areas of the board and prevent charges on things like ratling guns. ie if you position yourself just under an inch from some woods an enemy wanting to get past has to enter the wood.. or less than an inch from the edge of the board would mean that an enemy would not be able to flank you.

as i go throught he book i will add any others i find that could be usefull. if anyone else has anythoughts please reply as my store manager is on about me entering the gt next year and i want to make sure i am ready and am not going to be surprised by rules i dont know about.
Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state.

Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia.


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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

*raises eyebrows*

Rules to EXPLOIT!? Remind me again, why the HELL would you want to EXPLOIT the rules!?

Even in tournament settings, the given rules shouldnt be exploited for ANY reason. If you were to play a game and say "oh, my ratling gun is an 8th of an inch from that woods, so you have to go through the woods to move past or charge him", you would be called a VERY bad word indeed. Plus your sportsmanship score would be almost non-existant.

This game is about fun, fairness and general logical thinking, not looking for loopholes in the rules system. If you want to win a game, learn how to do it on the battlefield, not in the rulebook.

Loopholes and rules exploitation are for n00bs. Please, dont do it.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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Queetik
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chieftainskritchskritch
Nov 2 2007, 09:31 PM
Loopholes and rules exploitation are for n00bs.

I disagree. They are for "Wood Elf"-holes... if you catch my drift.

Even in tourneys I would assume it is best to be a fair and friendly player. This topic just sounds like the antithesis of what Warhammer is about--to me. And I guess that is the main thing I need to wrap my little brain around: everyone plays the game for a different reason. If you wanna play solely to win, then maybe this topic serves some purpose. But if you want to get the most out of the game, win because you are a good general, not because you found out how to exploit the rules.
The Shadows of the Howling Heights are contemplating a return in 8th
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bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
i think i have come across wrong.. probably my choice of words. i have had several problems with some of the people i am playing on a relatively serious level. i loose almost all the time which isnt a problem in itself but they are what was previously described as "Wood Elf"-holes. apart from just using rules they know i didnt know (their answer to my raised eye brows and quick search throught he rule book was "the only way to learn is the hard way") they are very anal and their moto tends to be rules as written and then when i find out that they are blatently ignoring rules when they feel like it to get a tactical advantage it really enraged me (i suppose i really should have gone away and calmed down after reading the book but i was on here at the time)

i play the game at all times to enjoy it and to learn and as it put at the start of my thread

Quote:
 
before i get too far into this i want to make clear that i dont plan on using anything in this thread in friendly games against "weaker opponents"


i probably should have put "or against weaker opponents".

as for tournies my only contact so far with tournis has been these players mentioned before and my new store manager who is also a woodelf (in the context above) so my assumption was that this was the standard for tournies.

i cannot appologise enough if i have offended anyone and please ignore this thread completely as it was written with a hot head, good intentions but under a false impression. [/color]
Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state.

Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia.


<img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a>

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Lord Lughtigern
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The Mad Ratter.

I don't understand why you just don't read the rulebook straight through, so then you'd know the rules (or at least have recollections of them) so no rule would suprise you. Then wouldn't there be no need for this? I mean, you have a rulebook, right? If not your own, then a friend must have one. Once you know all of the rules, they won't be able to pull any of this "fast stuff" on you, so there's no need to try to get back at them..? And instead of "exploiting" the rules, you'd just be "playing the game"? I mean, I've looked through the rulebook a few times, and I never saw anything in there that saw me think: "Oh my good lord I can kick some serious ass thanks to this rule!" Instead they're all pretty applicable to most armies...
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Links you should try out:
Denizens of the Deep - Rules for Underground Campaigns
Warhammer Skirmish - The Lazy Man's Mordheim
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Mutator
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bakfire the experimenter
Nov 2 2007, 10:27 PM
1) you cannot get within 1" of a model unless you are charging them.. this could be usefull to block areas of the board and prevent charges on things like ratling guns. ie if you position yourself just under an inch from some woods an enemy wanting to get past has to enter the wood.. or less than an inch from the edge of the board would mean that an enemy would not be able to flank you.

This is an entirely valid approach. Making proper use of the rules is important. Complaining about proper use of the rules ("I dont think you should be able to stop me doing that") is usually a sign of someone who doesnt know the rules, and is thus poorer for it - after all, if they knew the rules they wouldnt have tried it, right?

However, and here is the important bit - you have to be fair in your use of the rules, so that (i) you dont look like you are pulling rules out of your arse for your sole benefit, and (ii) you meet your opponents' expectations of the game.

This means:

(a) you'll explain what you are doing and why you are doing it as you do it, or before. Dont quietly place things close together and wait for your opponent to move before going "Aha! You cant move there because...". Better to state "I'm placing my units thus, so that you cannot approach my ratling gun without having to move through that terrain, or declare a charge to get by the 1" apart rule...". See the difference?

(B) you'll establish before the game through conversation, and through observation during the course of the game, what your opponent expects in the way of rules use. Some people just want to move stuff around and roll dice, others view the game as a mental exercise within the framework of some (loosely written) rules. You'll need to make some sort of judgement call as to where you place yourself during the course of a game against any given opponent.

In summary: go for it, but as an open application of the rules that both players can benefit from, not as leverage to gain an edge over a less knowledgeable player.
Mostly harmless
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bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
Lord Lughtigern: the reason i was reading throught he rule book through in one hit was that i was taught the game by the people i am playing against. untill the other day i didnt own a rule book or had even read a bit of it (have literally had it for 2/3 days). i was explained the game order, and magic and all the rest of the stuff i knew was picked up from watching others play (most of them dont even have a rule book to hand whilst playing). i had the skaven army book but for things like how does a great weapon work or how do throwing stars work i just asked them during a game.

no rule in the book would allow me to kick someones ass as you said but for me and as i assumed at the time loads of others who were having this problem with competative gamers i thought knowing some of the lesser known rules would help even the playing field.. i am the only skaven player in my area that most warhammer gamers at my store will actually play and i win 35% of my games normally by sheer luck on the dice as oppossed to any tactical brilliance hence the fact im not interested in tournies yet (and the fact that i dont know the rules). and i have been told i have a ballanced friendly army which i dont plan on changing for the world.

if the road to hell is truly paved with good intentions then i am clearly one step closer
Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state.

Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia.


<img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a>

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Warlock Master Shikkish
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Guys, this is Warhammer: The Game of Fantasy Bug Exploitation. Get used to it, seriously...their adamant inclusion of obvious inconsistencies makes it seem intentional.

1) This isn't an exploit, this is obvious manoeuvering.

Mutator: I would love a Warhammer group like that. I find there's a lot of winning by exploiting your opponent's lack of knowledge 'round here...
Neek-neek...MEOW?!
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Bodacious
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I think this topic is just a case of a wrong title-phrasing by bakfire here. From what I gather from bakfire's posts is that he isn't really looking to actually 'exploit' the rules, but merely become aware of some of the more obscure ones so that he can avoid making bad play decisions.

I recall well the time I set up 2 combats where my plague monks were flanking an archer unit and overran into the 'greatswords VS clanrat' combat next to them. Due to the rules changes in 7th edition, by choosing to have the archer the plague monk vs archer unit resolved first (as was my right for being the active player that turn) I was able to let the plague monks fight two combats that turn. Outrage was cried by my opponent because he was unaware of those rule changes. If he had been aware of the rule he probably would have placed his archer unit elsewhere and his greatsword would have totally hacked apart my clanrats. But now he had lost two valuable units instead. I was kinda dissapointed afterwards, because it isn't all that fun to win a game thanks to a rule misunderstanding.

So I agree that it's important to be aware of this sort of thing beforehand and that there are indeed a fair bunch of those rules in the game that may seem minor or cornercase, until you come across them in a game and completely lose the game because of it. The most difficult rules in warhammer are IMO the psychology rules (especially the panic test section) and stuf like the redirect charges and flee+pursue rules. At least those are the ones I'd suggest you give a good read before going to a GT ;) .

Now let's restrain ourselves from turning this into a discussion about powergaming, ok :P ?
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Sebrent
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Warlock Master Shikkish
Nov 8 2007, 09:48 AM
Guys, this is Warhammer: The Game of Fantasy Bug Exploitation. Get used to it, seriously...their adamant inclusion of obvious inconsistencies makes it seem intentional.

1) This isn't an exploit, this is obvious manoeuvering.

Mutator: I would love a Warhammer group like that. I find there's a lot of winning by exploiting your opponent's lack of knowledge 'round here...

W.T.F.

What is with the players these days and exploiting rules, people, etc. It is a game which means it is meant to be played for enjoyment. Too many people seem to be disconnected from that concept... and this "it happens" bull is not a reason/excuse to do it yourself. People commit suicide every day, but I don't see those same people saying "it happens" and doing it themselves (pity too, clean up the gene pool a bit, lol).
----Skaven Mathhammer
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ratmikey
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I have become my terror,and you my precious lamb and martyr
Hey,
i only ever play 40k,but i still think it is really underhanded and a cowardly way to win a game,which is supposed to be fun and a way of making friends and socialising.You shouldn't play warhammer just to win,to say you beat this person or that person,or to gloat.I play warhammer to have a good laugh with my mate.So i would never play anyone who will exploit the holes in the rules,simple as! :angry: This is in no way meant to offend anyone,it is just my honest opinion!
Man i'm angry today! :P
Cheers
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Rusty Tincanne
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...you can still call me Rusty Tincanne if you want, though.

I have won most of the games I played because my opponents (not many of them, mind you) haven't known skaven rules. Of course I did not know any of their special rules, either, so it seemed very inncent at the time. The point? This thread is making me think more about being upfront with some of my strategies, and with asking what my opponents are thinking of, too.

I think that if folks are playing against a more experienced player it would be good to throw the hubris away and start asking questions of your opponent. But wher would a person draw the line between, "teach me while we play" and "what is your strategy - so you won't really be able to use it"?

@Lughtingern: I read the 6th ed. rulebook several times and never knew all the rules. Heck, I've never played a game where the BRB hasn't needed to be consulted. My head is too full of banjo songs to fit in WFB rules. :P


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Vermitt Stain
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at one point i actully made my army worse on purpous as my army was just not losing a game and it ended up getting boring. although with that current army i do still win alot it normally a minor victory. also i have never had a rule book i just learn the rules from other people. personaly i dont like people who change their armys to beat a specific army as i think you need a army able to take on all types of army.
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Everything Is Expendable
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It is every players duty to know the rules of engagement. If a game goes badly because some fool who refused to read the rulebook got destroyed by obscure reference 3.2 under section XXIV, it is he who has made the game unbalanced and boring to play, not you, who have loyally played by the rules and outstrategised an inferior opponent who not only declines to improve himself, but also seeks to drag you down with him.

The 'obscure' rules (which are by the way clearly printed in the official rulebook and aren't to hard to locate) are not there to be exploited. They are there to prevent exploits and confusion. Loopholes are things the rules don't cover, which these subsidiary rules help to patch. Anchoring a flank using the 1" rule to a terrain piece or the edge of the table is standard strategy. If you don't know all the rules and strategy, no harm asking your opponent and learning as quickly as you can. Nothing wrong with reading the rules once before playing, then again after the first five battles, then again after then next 10, etc.

Knowing the rulebook is a basic requirement of every game, not just Warhammer. Knowing what one's own units are capable of and actually using them to advantage rather than pushing them about aimlessly is the least one can do to make the game interesting and enjoyable.

I don't think tailoring one's army to meet an enemy is that bad, simply because if this didn't occur I would never ever use any of the more specialist items such as dwarf-slayer, storm banner, or even rat ogres except under extreme duress (usually against an extreme enemy who had it coming by being particularly cheesy).
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