- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Knowledge and Beauty; Thoughts of an insomniac | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: 8th October 2007 - 12:15 PM (427 Views) | |
| Akai-Chan | 8th October 2007 - 12:15 PM Post #1 |
|
Rawrrrr! (Monster)
|
There is no such thing as true knowledge, pure knowledge. something that only you know, something unknown to the rest of the earth. We as humans are greedy for knowledge, thinking it will bring power and respect. Nothing is left unsaid. The most beautiful things should be left unspoken, uncaptured except in someones mind. Maybe written down but not showed to the world. We are destroying our own beauty by our greed for knowledge. What do we have left when the beauty is gone? Truth. But even after time truth gets forgotten, different truths happen. In the end, we have nothing. Anything beautiful or rare or unique becomes commercialised through words and pictures, spread all over the world. they're right there if you care to look for them. Anything you may have thought only you saw or knew or understood has been captured by someone else, picked apart and discussed, deconstructed until it loses it's mystery and beauty. Nothing beautiful or pure can survive in this world. Not while humans are still here. There isn't even space for opinion anymore, only fact. Opinion becomes crushed by conformity, majority vote. We all end up making the same opinion of something, turning it into a truth when the facts are still unknown. Diversity is being taken over by society as one huge machine. Social groups are becoming more defined, with no space inbetween. No-one thinks to break free. Individualism is a lost art. Yet, we let ourselves become like this, but why? We let our opinions become crushed, our imagination taken away and our indivudual traits become hidden in a search for knowledge, so we are all of one opinion. No-one is individual. We like to think we are but we are conforming. I don't really know what I'm trying to say now... I'm bad at endings Just try not to let yourself become a part of it. Be individual, be outrageous, question the things that others take as fact and let your opinions be known. Let them stay your own and don't let anyone crush them.Be beautiful. Don't let anyone take that away. Peace Red PS Sorry if I sound really opinionated or negative here... I don't mean to. It's what midnight philosophy does to me
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Madthing | 8th October 2007 - 01:52 PM Post #2 |
|
Chieftain
|
I don't understand how people think that by understanding something the subject loses its beauty. In my opinion, by understanding and comprehending something, you in fact gain more angles from which to appreciate that beauty. Perhaps the subject may not be as beautiful from these new angles as it is from the old, but how does that detract from its beauty in the old? Knowledge is not what destroys beauty, but the beholder. So long as you can appreciate beauty, no amount of knowledge will destroy what is beautiful. Indeed, for me, the most beautiful things become even more beautiful the more I know about them. And how does the distribution of beauty destroy that beauty? How does the commercialisation of that beauty guarantee its destruction? To my mind, beauty is an intrinsic quality; regardless of whether it has been done to death, dissected or used for money, something that is beautiful remains beautiful. And yet, beauty only exists in the mind of the observer, for this is how beauty is destroyed: the beholder decides that it is no longer beautiful, because they understand it, because it has become ubiquitous, because it has been used for money, and for that observer, the beauty has gone. But nothing about that object has changed: it is still as beautiful as it was before. Only what the viewer thinks has changed. Is a painting hung up in a gallery not beautiful because you must pay to enter? Is a skillfully taken photograph any less beautiful because it was taken for an advertisement? Is the conception and birth of a human being any less wondrous for all that we know about it? Can there be no beauty to a mathematical formula simply because it is understood? All these ideas of how beauty must be, of what beauty is associated with, merely hamper the true appreciation of beauty, to my mind. Beauty exists, irrespective of, in addition, to everything else. Beauty does not detract from the horror of the terrible, nor does it enhance the wonder of the good. Beauty is beauty, nothing more and nothing less. And these ideas of conformity, of individuality, from whence do they spring? Are they all your own, or are they really things you have read, things you have been told, all mixed together to form what we see here? But yet, whether or not they are actually conformist to anti-conformism, they are your individual ideas. Why does it matter whether ideas come from, so long as they are your own? Why is it so terrible that you are in agreement with others? What is this obsession with difference? Why are people so anxious to be different to others and yet distance themselves from each other precisely because of this difference? Why is it that people hate the parts of themselves that are the same as others and yet hate others for the parts that are not the same as themselves? I believe that individuality is the freedom of the individual. And this freedom includes the freedom to agree with what other individuals think. It includes the freedom to decide that the majority course of action is correct. It includes the freedom to decide that your own feelings are less important than the harmony of the community. I believe that the only one who can destroy an opinion is the holder of that opinion. Nobody can change your mind for you; you must always choose to change it. So how is it that people choosing to change their mind is a terrible thing? Not having the choice of changing your mind is the same as not having the choice of holding your opinion. And just as this is, beauty is also an opinion. Whether or not you call something beautiful is your opinion. Nothing can force you to decide that something is no longer beautiful. You must decide for yourself whether what you know means that you no longer think something is beautiful. Ironically enough, all of this is just my opinion. People decide for themselves whether they agree with it or not. But whether or not they agree, I respect their decision as that of an individual, without the labelling of conformism and non-conformism. |
![]() |
|
| .:WarWolt The Mad Engineer:. | 8th October 2007 - 01:57 PM Post #3 |
|
"With this Childrens TCG card I will rule the world"
|
*hugs madthing* like starting into your own minds backyard and have the conent read up aloud. I applaud you, thanks for the ponderwonder-gasm
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Sebrent | 8th October 2007 - 05:07 PM Post #4 |
![]()
|
Why do you describe "true knowledge"/"pure knowledge" as the knowledge only one individual possesses? What is so special about the concept of knowledge that only one person has? That knowledge is all but useless and is lost upon the death of that person, waiting to be rediscovered by another in an endless cycle of "reinventing the wheel" because it remains your definition of "true" or "pure" knowledge. Knowledge is meant to be shared for the betterment of mankind, not hidden from mankind. Else we'd still live in caves.
First, this is quite a generalization; one that I strongly disagree with. Many people believe that saying (that I hate) "ignorance is bliss." That ignorance obviously coming from a lack of knowledge. Also, many people do not acquire knowledge for power and respect. They acquire it for understanding. Others acquire it in order to help people. Again, many of the best minds have acquired knowledge and used it for the betterment of mankind. Look at refrigerators, cars, medicines, etc. In fact, it is a lack of knowledge/education that causes many of those poorest conditions in sectors of countries to remain the same.
Why is it that you insist that beauty should be hoarded away by an individual? If it is so beautiful, should you not share it with others so that they may experience the same positive feelings you do from basking in the beauty of that object? Then, beautiful/stimulating/interesting/etc conversations can stem from the experiences of many individuals who have experienced this beauty, possibly shining light on new angles by which to observe the beauty, making it even more admirable an object. What is the point of something being beautiful if no one sees it? What is the point of knowledge being beautifully useful if no one is allowed to use it? As Madthing pointed out, it only loses its beauty to the individual that thinks it has lost its beauty. What is this truth you speak of that stems from multiple individuals knowledge of something "beautiful?" Also, what is wrong with discovering the truth of an object? I strongly disagree that truth is forgotten. Galileo was the first person to record what he saw in the sky and named the ancient basins of lava flows on the moon "moria." We still call them moria today, the Latin word for "ocean." That knowledge as not forgotten. Some human being discovered the truth of how fire is created. I'm quite sure that truth has not been forgotten, and many people still find fire quite beautiful. Heck, the first computers were just theories and proofs with pen and paper, but those truths were not forgotten and now we have very powerful computers. If any of this knowledge had not been shared, it would have never been used, thus becoming much like useless trivia such as "who is dating who is Hollywood." If anything is greedy, it is the keeping of knowledge to yourself rather than sharing it.
First, something is commercialised when it is sold for a profit by a commercial company. Words and pictures do not commercialise beauty, they merely spread knowledge of it to others. Why do objects and ideas have to be "rare" or "unique" in order to be beautiful? Most of our planet is made of water, but it is beautiful. Everyone has seen the sky, but it is beautiful. Heck, watch a sunrise or sunset, both are wonderful. Is water any less beautiful now that we know it is made of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom? Is the sun any less beautiful in the sky now that we know it is a giant burning ball of gas whose heat comes from burning hydrogen into helium? No. They are still beautiful, and even more wonderful to many due to this additional knowledge gleaned about them and shared amongst people, rather than hoarded by an individual. Heck, many beautiful things have stemmed from human beings, such as music, art, science, math, literature, dance, theater, architecture... the list goes on an on.
Opinions are not crushed by conformity. Merely those who would have otherwise had no opinion just adopt the opinions of those around them if asked in a vain attempt to not appear uninformed. As Madthing already pointed out, opinions can not be crushed, merely changed by the person who held the opinion. If your opinion is not the majority though, you better be able to explain your opinion in a logically sound fashion, as should the majority with their opinion (hence the problem with many opinions, no logic is used to attempt to "back them up"). As far as opinions that "become facts," do please cite an example.
Really? We've lost diversity? I beg to differ. Countries all over the world are experiencing rapidly changing demographics as far as the "race" of their population. We see the intermingling of cultures and ideas, racial bloodlines, goods, services, etc. every day thanks to society which provides the structure in which we are able to safely do all of this. Social groups are becoming more defined? So we're still nerds, jocks, cheerleaders, goths, and dopers? Again, I beg to differ. You see many people who are both intelligent and athletic. You see those who are cheerleaders but like the look of goth clothes when not in their uniform. And there are dopers who are successful (though would likely be more so if they weren't dopers <_< ) in intellectual and physical persuits.
So, you think that having a group of friends that you think and act alike is a bad thing? It seems you think those people think and act alike because they are friends. Again, you've tried to stereotype groups of people. Ever ponder the idea that they are friends because they think and act alike? Even then, that is often times not the case. Often times you will see people be friends due to how their differences mesh with one another to create experiences they all enjoy.
Again, have you thought that people like the traits they see in others and try to become more like that? Is there a problem with wanting to be something you think is good? Again, as Madthing pointed out, the only one who can crush an individuals opinion, is that individual. Now, how in the world do you think that imagination and individual traits are hidden by the persuit of knowledge? Seriously, how is gaining knowledge going to hide one's traits? How is additional knowledge going to make a person less imaginative? Neither of them do. The more knowledge a person has, the more knowledge they have to pull from in which to reflect on them self to get a better understanding of who they are as an individual and the more knowledge they have to pull from for any creative habits they have adopted. From your statement it would seem you think otherwise... that people are more individualized and more creative the less knowledge they have. What is it we're conforming to? Am I conforming because I'm taking the required classes and exams and doing the work required to receive a doctorate in computer science? I'm not the only person doing it, there are many who do these things. Are we all conformist? My wife has a degree in Spanish and a minor in international studies, has she conformed to that group? Have we both conformed to the group of people Spanish and Computer Science people who get married and have children? Have the members of this site conformed to groups such as "Moulder", "Pestilens", "Skryre", or "Eshin?" I think not. Just look around and you'll see that the people in these so-called "groups" are quite different. Some of them may have similar traits, but they are each an individual.
Okay, I'll stop there with quoting you then ...except for thsi last quote, lol.
Really? What philosopher(s) and book(s)/paper(s)? |
|
----Skaven Mathhammer ---- ![]()
| |
![]() |
|
| scrivener | 9th October 2007 - 12:03 AM Post #5 |
![]()
*toot*
![]()
|
In an office context, it makes me indispensable. Welcome, job security!
|
| |
![]() |
|
| shade the exiled one | 9th October 2007 - 12:55 AM Post #6 |
|
lawl and order
|
regardless of opinion don't let anyone take beauty away For gods sake people, drive responsibly or not at all |
![]() GENERATION 4: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment | |
![]() |
|
| kizzlesticks | 9th October 2007 - 01:42 AM Post #7 |
![]()
Pick-up 'Sticks
|
Wow.... I'm in my philosophy class at school. I went on to the UE to escape for a bit, and look what I find:P It's all really deep and interesting. I'd like to give my own slant on it. I am a musician, and I've been learning since I was young. I play piano, I started singing and I've played a bit of sax and guitar. To begin with I was playing very simple music- many start with 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' and other such songs. I enjoyed it, and I had favourite bands and all. But the more time I have spent playing music the more I am becoming to appreciate it. I am playing more difficult pieces and am learning more techniques. I am putting more feeling into my music and not just 'bashing' notes. I appreciate music I am hearing more, and now I listen out to certain things (such as waiting for a chord to resolve- it feels sooooo good :P). I am learning more and I am still enjoying it, maybe even more than I used to. Also, if I give a good performance I feel great afterwards. To give a good performance I need to practice, learn proper technique, learn what the musical terms mean. I was recently in a contempery opera-type singing group. Before then I was never really a fan of contempory music. After spending some time singing some really weird songs (an 8-part unaccompanied vocal piece with lots of weird harmonies and timing. It was really difficult!) i became to appreciate it more, and by the end of it I was enjoying the song. I've spent time learning what it sounds like and things such as how the harmonies were achieved. The composer could have just had the idea and kept it to themself. But instead he wrote it down, gave it to us to perform and we in turn gave it to our audience. True, those people had to give a gold-coin donation to enter. But they paid for their experience, and we could put that money back into the costs for making the performance and for future performances. Now there are some musicians out there who are writing songs purely for money. They use chord progressions that are 'cheesy' (not as in SAD :P) that have been used time and time again. They use words and make a rhythm to sell the song. But people still like it. Why? Because it was a decent song, no matter why it was written or how cheesy it is. Now people who are listening don't need to know about the theory behind it. They can still enjoy the song. But I still enjoy songs, even if I recognise the chord progression or musical motif. If anything I enjoy songs more because of it. Now you may be asking 'where are you going with this?'. The reason I know you are probably asking that is because I just read back over this and asked myself the same question. I guess what I'm trying to say is that music is beautiful and enjoyable, especially when shared with people. Other people may have had a similar idea (hey, every chord progression has been used somewhere before- a fun game is to play a chord progression and see how many songs you can think of that sound just like that. :P) but that doesn't make it any less beautiful. I'm beginning to enjoy music (especially playing it) by learning more about it and by listening to other peoples ideas and music. I am using all of that to write a song that I'm working on. This song is based on my own experience and because of that it is unique, even though the chords (and probably even the melody) have been used. It is still my song, and I will share that with people who will listen. I will give them my song, and they will learn about my experience. By sharing it with them they get a chance to enjoy it. What would music be if no-one ever shared it? If you have read this far- congrats! I'm half-paying attention to my teacher and revision so my mind is a bit all over the place. I hope it makes some sense. Later! 'Sticks [Mutate] - @ Akai-Chan: although your philosophy may not be totally sound you still have a point and the message which you give is a good one. Be yourself- you are beautiful in your own ways. Don't be someone that other people want you to be. (is this what you meant?) |
Woomba: The Hypherion Incident-OOC
I'm back, and here to stay! | |
![]() |
|
| Mutator | 9th October 2007 - 02:12 AM Post #8 |
![]()
Retired fat dude
![]()
|
I know stuff that noone else knows :ph43r: Plenty of other people do too. You, the generic reader, know stuff that none of us know. Whether or not it is of value or importance to anyone else is irrelevant. |
| Mostly harmless | |
![]() |
|
| scrivener | 9th October 2007 - 03:00 AM Post #9 |
![]()
*toot*
![]()
|
One thing about the opinion/individuality/fact/conformity topic: the most important aspect of an opinion is not its uniqueness, but its logic. An opinion that is shared by ten million people can be assumed to be an ok opinion, as it has gone through ten million minds and everyone either agrees with it or doesn't have a reason to challenge it. While it's better to have your own opinion about something, if one is too dumb to come up with something decent, they are probably safest to just stick with the tried and true. Conformity means you're probably on the right track, as it's the track used by the people who haven't gone extinct yet. And if some idiot comes up with a stupid opinion and a bunch of bigger idiots follow that stupid opinion, then hopefully said stupid opinion takes them all out of the gene pool. I disagree with giving any unduly large significance to opinion for one reason: there is such a thing as a stupid opinion, and they tend to be quite common. Opinion is generally on what one thinks and feels, a personal idiosyncracy that doesn't require a basis of support. Fact, however, is, well, fact. It's a lot more unshakable and well-supported. You can depend on a fact a lot more than on an opinion. If one's opinions are good, then that's nice, but since opinions don't have the sort of regulatory quality-control criteria that facts have, we tend to get flooded with loads of crappy ones, like bootleg china-made handbags. The problem where fact, and in turn truth, gets corrupted, is in your own words:
To rephrase, when people mistake a well-used opinion as a fact, without relying on the supporting evidence/rationale that is a criteria of an actual fact. An opinion is always an opinion, until it has the required criteria to be proven as a fact. The only way we can assure a quality, individualistic, rational opinion, is by analysis, deconstruction, discussion, and the pursuit and sharing of knowledge. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Mebob | 9th October 2007 - 04:42 AM Post #10 |
|
Pants are for the weak!
|
My opinion kind off strides widely between everyones here. I agree and disagree with a hell of alot of points raised, but to save time and effort i'll only comment on the origional post for now (such a subtle way off saying "i got bored halfway through reading peopels replies )I agree with the fact that if something becomes so commecrialised and seen its beauty becomes rather plain. Unless you see it for yourself. For example, you see some rolling plains with thees rocks and other natural things lain out in a beautiful way (im crap at describing) its such a sight that its nothing compared to seeing it on TV or a postcard. FOr the "Stride to be different". That thing kind off annoyed me backa t England. Al lthe emo's would all be "different" and "individual". in the same way. For example, an emo in my old school came into a non--unifrom day wearing pink, seems as pink isnt a typical tings guys wear, there for he's different. Come the enxt non-unifrom day around half of the emo's had some sort of pink clothing on them. Same with the back coming, wearing your jeans too low and so on. Everyones stride to be different is in my pinion kind off stupid, althought being honest i have tried being different form people, but thats because i didn't like them. And i lvoed wearing all blakc with zips and chains on my pants ![]() "no Space for opinion" From my experience you have to be carefull in airing your opinion, if its too different or mould breaking, m ost of the time you'll be mocked or something by sharing it. And alot of peoples opinions are simply the same as everyone elses around them and not there own and so on... Mhm
|
|
For proffesionaly made corsets visit: Elegantly bound Classic looks for the modern woman (click the name!) ![]() Clan Notch ![]() Rukarthan 23rd and Order of Sanctuary (Imperial gaurd and Sister of Battle) My Devaint Art account | |
![]() |
|
| Akai-Chan | 9th October 2007 - 01:44 PM Post #11 |
|
Rawrrrr! (Monster)
|
You know something? I love you all. Each and every one of you so damn much. I love people who argue back You've made my day. I'm now sitting here giggling I really really love you all. Peace Red And no I'm not drunk, I promise. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Mutator | 9th October 2007 - 08:36 PM Post #12 |
![]()
Retired fat dude
![]()
|
The stupid thing is, half* of these people who wax lyrical about rubbish like this couldnt string a coherent sentence together when it actually came to warhammer and skaven which is, like, the point of this forum!![]() *OK, maybe hardly any, but you get the point. What does it take to have a decent warhammer rules conversation around here? |
| Mostly harmless | |
![]() |
|
| scrivener | 10th October 2007 - 12:53 AM Post #13 |
![]()
*toot*
![]()
|
You only have ask, to, like say, skaven rules, maybe nature the deathglobes or revolving dice for examining of the initiative, we say then discuss yes, good good yes, can decent conversationate. |
| |
![]() |
|
| Mutator | 10th October 2007 - 01:50 AM Post #14 |
![]()
Retired fat dude
![]()
|
:ph43r: |
| Mostly harmless | |
![]() |
|
| Ratphink | 10th October 2007 - 02:12 AM Post #15 |
|
The Unlovable Lurker
![]()
|
You know, as a budding artist, I have to say I may have a skewed version of beauty, but here it is. It's what feels right. It's when you get into the flow of things, your mind is focussed on the task at hand and it no longer becomes a chore, a task, but a hobby. A thing you do because you enjoy it. Sometimes like when I'm drawing or painting and the music isn't just there, but it's moving through me. It's when I feel finally at one with the World doing what I want to do. And when that drawing, sketch, or whatever finally comes out how I want it, people can then take their own meaning from it. It may not be my meaning, they may dissect it until its guts have been yanked out for all to see, and god knows that they could still miss the point. The point stands that they look at it, even dissect it, and know its beautiful. They don't know why, and that's WHY they dissect it. Beauty isn't understood, its appreciated. It's admired. Beauty could be that guy or gal walking down the street. It could be that book you can't stop reading. It could be that picture you just finished drawing. Yes. Humanity is greedy. But so is every other species when you think about it. The only difference is we don't understand the barks, meows, and squawks of the animal kingdom enough to figure out that they're here doing the same thing we are. They live to feed and breed and try to as best as they can to become the dominant species. The only difference between us and them is now we have money thrown in the mix. :lol: So what is beauty really then? Such an abstract and subjective notion can only be discerned by somebody by themselves. Be it the knowledge of what once mystery, or the mystery of the unknown. Does it matter? It's beautiful ain't it, so shush up and enjoy it. People get so caught up in the grit and grime of the world that they forget to appreciate what they call beautiful. Just my two cents. |
Award for the Worst joke ever goes to... THRASKITAR for the following:
| |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Off Topic · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2




Just try not to let yourself become a part of it. Be individual, be outrageous, question the things that others take as fact and let your opinions be known. Let them stay your own and don't let anyone crush them.









)

