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Games Workshop-losing even more
Topic Started: 2nd August 2007 - 10:23 AM (1,105 Views)
Mebob
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Okay, my mum has just shown me an article in yesterdays "Daily Mirror" Concerning gamesworkshop, and i thought you guys might be interested in it.

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Old toys net loss

Gamesworkshopis shutting 32 failing stores as it battles losses of #2.9 million a year.

The Nottingham chain, which sells fantasy toy soldiers, is losing out to computer consoles and online games.
"This has been a tough year," admitted boss Tom Kirby.

Most closures aare in the US, but eight shops and a factory in Cambs will shut in the UK, despite sales growing here last year. Some jobs will move to its HQ

So, another news article about GW closing stores and such.

What are all of your opinions on this?

I reckon its not due to online games that gamesworkshop are loosing, their just using yet another scape goat and failing to understand why their overpriced goods arnt selling.

In My opinion, unless gamesworkshop changes it will close down completely in the next few years.

I reckon it should go back to how it was during the SoC, good models, awsome stories /fluff(although the ending of the SoC wasnt too great), white dwarf was at its best, prices were expensive, but still reasonable.

Now in my opinion, White dwarf is 200 or so pages of "buy this shiney new model" the models themselves arnt as good, and come as more of a "One pose, one piece" Model, the fluff is awful, and the prices are unafordable.

Why bother buying 5 Space marines for #20 (hmm my pound signs missing..) when you can by a computer game for just a bit more (depends what game you get tho.. :P )

So thats my thoughts on this, whats yours? :D
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Chieftain Cazgar
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i blame lotr models, i havn't seen anyone play with them or buy them for, well, since last summer when i went to the beginners things on a sunday and there was 2 guys that played it.

why isn't it shifting? because nobody cares what aragorn or frodo are up to any more as the movies are over and done with. simple as that if you ask me. relegate lotr to a specailist game (which it must be, as it's too rarely played to remain a core system imo) and focus on doing things like updating the 40k and fantasy mini's more often, maybe even a new army for one of the systems.

i first learnt about warhammer when lotr magazine with models came out (a few friends started it and i'd go to the shop with them now and again) so i don't really know what was on the shelves where the lotr stuff is now.

the 2 stores i've been to seem to follow the glass front, 3 walls with 40k on the 1, fantasy on another and lotr on the other style, so i presume it's the same for all GWs. so, what used to be on the lotr wall before lotr? maybe they could just sell that :P
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Throat Ripper
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Damn i was going to say that. I blame Lotr models, nobody has ever used them since when the movie came out. And mostly that was just little kids getting hyped up about it or people buying it because its abit cheaper.
It was supposed that awhile back they were going to get rid of it all but it seems theyve just kept it up, now even more so because it seems thats all WD talks about, and that has gone down the drains since Guy or Fatbloke left the chair.

If they did abit more time on new models for the other ranges people would be happier, on any of the sites ive been too, the word is the same: "Get rid of lotr" but of course, i havent been on a lotr site but meh...

I hope this means they dont raise the prices otherwise people just wont buy, £18 is quite enough for a group of plastic soliders...


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Demagorgon
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I don't know about overpriced... I can't hold their prices against them. It's a vicious cycle that's pretty self defeating. They are maknig losses, so raise prices to try and cover them, so lose at more because of people complaining over prices.
So people, understandeably, turn to ebay, hurting Games Workshops profits even more.

I understand why they raise prices - to try and save themselves - but I also understand why people react the way they do.

It just makes me sad more than anything. It's a company. The way it does things may not be to everyone's tastes but it's hardly a conspiracy against you, raising prices out of spite. I understand why you don't like the prices, but if you don't buy them, then Games Workshop doesn't exist. If it raises prices, it loses money. If it lowers them, it loses money. It's not out to screw over the customers. Why would it be?

The computer games thing may not be a scapegoat as the fact of the matter. A lot of shops suffer from the rise of online shopping, which is more convenient and accessible and easy, so the table time gaming versus computer games thing is a fair comparison, I think. You pay once, no assembling or painting. In my opinion it's the difference between cookery and takeout. Less fulfilling, less personality, but less effort.

In my opinion, the mdoels are better than ever. I love the old models, because I'm soppy for nostalgia, but the new ones look great - lots more vitality and conversion options. And if you don't like them, the old ones are still available - not all companies do that. Some of the fluff is crap, yeah, but it's always been a bit hit and miss :D

And White Dwarf has always fluctuated in quality, but that is a reflection on the editors rather than Games Workshop. In my opinion, both pre-and-post Fat Bloke have been dreadful.*waves fat bloke flag*

I don't want to see it crumble, but it might. Theoretically, Games Workshop can make more money by being purely online - no maintenance, or staffing costs. It would lose a lot of hobby aspects and accessibility but maybe that's a possiblity for the future? I hope it doesn't die - I want my skaven :(

[MUTATE] Sorry for the essay! Agreed on the LotR thing. It needn't have been so bad but GW made really dumb mistakes.. the like Deagostini magazine deal. That was a huge flop.

[MUTATE AGAIN] I just looked, and the absolute lowest Games Workshop has been was in 2001 (I'm not an expert on these things but the little jaggy blue line on the chart took a nose dive, there you go, have some technical terms :P) and after some reshuffling, replanning and firing, it clawed itself out of its pit. So maybe it can do it again. It's survived worse.
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Bodacious
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That's really strange new to me actually :huh: .

If I've noticed anything in my area is that Warhammer and Warhammer 40k have been excessively played and purchased lately. Privateer Press has also joined in, but it doesn't look like they're actually getting in the way of warhammer. Also, Warhammer Online is comming up and I still have to hear someone in my gaming club who is NOT excited about this.

I do hear what everyone's saying about the LotR line though. I don't think I've ever saw anyone play with them in my life and barring the occasional awesomeness of a Múmakil model in the display cabinet, haven't actually seen the models being bought a lot either.

The talk about closing shops doesn't worry me much seeing as I go to independant retailers most of the time anyway. As long as they continue to improve and refresh my beloved Warhammer Fantasy game (as they seem to be doing), I'm not worried one bit ^_^ .

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One thing that has confused me recently, and may be a factor in GWs losses, is the indecisivness that seems to permiate their products.

White Dwarf, their flagship magazine, and the GW Stores, their physical presence, both seem to target younger or beginner gamers. But the prices, army sizes, painting quality etc that they push seems to be that of older or Veteran gamers.

Veterans complain that WD has lost a lot of its indepth content. GW persues the opinion that Veterans should be able to find all they need online, and yet close their own forums.

Grots read about the 'must haves', and about creating unique armies, but cannot because these options are way out of their financial range.

I don't have a problem with higher prices, the direction of WD or anything like that. I have a problem with the fact that all the facets that GW presents do not actually seem to fit together at all.
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brownmccoy
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Aug 2 2007, 06:32 AM
i blame lotr models, i havn't seen anyone play with them or buy them for, well, since last summer when i went to the beginners things on a sunday and there was 2 guys that played it.

why isn't it shifting? because nobody cares what aragorn or frodo are up to any more as the movies are over and done with. simple as that if you ask me. relegate lotr to a specailist game (which it must be, as it's too rarely played to remain a core system imo) and focus on doing things like updating the 40k and fantasy mini's more often, maybe even a new army for one of the systems.

i first learnt about warhammer when lotr magazine with models came out (a few friends started it and i'd go to the shop with them now and again) so i don't really know what was on the shelves where the lotr stuff is now.

the 2 stores i've been to seem to follow the glass front, 3 walls with 40k on the 1, fantasy on another and lotr on the other style, so i presume it's the same for all GWs. so, what used to be on the lotr wall before lotr? maybe they could just sell that :P

Want to know the sad thing? You're right, but Games Workshop can't do anything about it. They have a licensing thing with New Line Cinemas, which has a net worth possibly thousand times more than that of GW. So, even though the game is not doing as well as WHFB or WH40K, they have to keep pushing it and cannot drop it.

Unlike where everyone else lives, LOTR has picked up over here. The battle companies campaign showed how fun LOTR can be, and it is dirt cheap compared to warhammer (24 models for $25 (LOTR) of 12/16/20 models for $45? (WH)), and a box gives you enough for a battle company, and 2 boxes and a blister will give you 500 points (the standard point cost in a game). However, named heroes are ridiculously expensive because of copyright issues.... but they are pretty models :P

Quote:
 
White Dwarf, their flagship magazine, and the GW Stores, their physical presence, both seem to target younger or beginner gamers. But the prices, army sizes, painting quality etc that they push seems to be that of older or Veteran gamers.


Actually, the prices sort of target kids... because kids have the most disposable income due to: parents, and how spoiled kids are. Most parents will cave (unless there are money issues) to kids begging for models, for the sole purpose that they aren't drugs. And parents are softening up. I know, I am still a kid in most people's eyes, but even I can tell that parents are caring less and less about discipline and limits, which shows with the attitude and weight of children. More than ever do I see children that are obese (and wearing crocs.... but that's a different matter, that I'm not sure is better or worse than obesity for appearance...)

Oops, I went quite off topic there. And yes, GW is targeting new gamers, in stead of targeting new and old gamers. This is starting to change, with the advanced order of that new 40k thing... I don't know what it is called since I only half paid attention, but its for games of 5k+. This obviously appeals to the veteran players, for the sole purpose that it would get confusing quickly with new players.

And I have noticed quite the sales decrease at my store, and hours has been cut back drastically. My store used to be open mon-Saturday (we didn't have Sunday shopping back then), 9-7 and until 8 on Tuesday and Thursday (veteran nights). It then changed to 12-9 each day, and until 10 on Tues and Thurs. Then, with Sunday shopping, Saturday and Sundays were only open from 12-6.

And now the current hours. It is not open on Mondays (it was the slowest day of the week), and is open from 12-7 (or 6, don't remember exactly) Tuesday and Wednesdays, 12-9 on Thursdays and Fridays, 12-7 again on Saturdays, and 12-5 on Sundays. These hours were taken for ALL GW stores in Canada. This is definitely showing a decrease in sales, because they are reducing the amount of time they have to pay for (it makes sense though, since people didn't really go during the hours it is now closed).

Okay, I keep getting off topic, so I'll stop. Pretty soon I'd be talking about oil increases and the Darfur conflict.
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Mebob
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Quote:
 
White Dwarf, their flagship magazine, and the GW Stores, their physical presence, both seem to target younger or beginner gamers.

White dwarf was a great thing a couple of years ago, i loved it as a begginer and as a a more experience begginer :P

It had really handy articles that pulled me into the hobby appealing to me as a child, and keeping me interested into the hobby when i was...less of a child and more experienced in game.

Whenever i visit their stores, the only people who play there seem to be children-young teenagers with the occasional older teenager.


Quote:
 
Veterans complain that WD has lost a lot of its indepth content. GW persues the opinion that Veterans should be able to find all they need online, and yet close their own forums.


If GW are referring to their website, in my opinion its articles have gone down as much as white dwarf has.

Gamesworkshop should take a step back and do what they did before, bring back White dwarves former glory, it was a good read with sound tactical and modeling advice, now its only handy use is when your out of toilet paper. I never even got halfway through the last issue i bought it bored me that much.

As for LotR ever since the movies have finished, i've not actually seen anyone play them at all. And im not completely sure, but i doubt its doing well.

I reckon that gamesworkshop shouldnt focus just on new gamers, many of them spill their wallets and decide they dont like warhammer anymore and such. Gamesworkshop should be targetting on keeping their depleting supply of veteran gamers,

Personally i would love to have a large Witch Hunters army, as since they were released they have been my favourite race. Just their so damn expensive. #2 for your standard troop. Effectively #1 for every 7 points in your army.

Since their price hikes, i have bene buying alot less models, therefore spending alot less on gamesworkshops products,a nd presuming other peopel ahve been doing the same as this, gamesworkshops profits have been going down.

In my opinion, gamesworkshops losses wouldnt be as much as if they kept their models at a steady price, or only increased them along with inflation, or not as drastically. And find other methods to cover for their losses

Mutate:i take back the @quality of models droppping@ bit from my first post, looking at the new chaos space marines ahs changed my mind on that aspect, but the rest still stnads
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Chieftain Cazgar
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the lotr license runs out next year IIRC, so the hope that they'll stop wasting effort on it is worth holding on to.

i probably wouldn't buy that many more models if they were cheaper, i'd just be happier about buying them. thing is, you're going to buy a unit of clan rats whether its 15 quid or 18, just because you need it any how.

there are lotr gamers (apparently) that buy everything online and tend to either just paint it, or play at home/clubs amongst their friends. they're the guys that read all the lotr books, not just the hobbit and the trillogy, or just watched the films. these are the hard core lotr fans. it's this reason i reckon that the shelf space should just be cleared, or drastically reduced and lotr reduced to a specialist game.

hell, maybe use the lotr wall as the specialist game wall, with a small section for all the specialist games + their books. there's more interest in mordehiem and necromunda at my store, but only 2 guys have anything because you have to mail order it all.

i've never purchased a white dwarf, as i find the internet shows me new models, battle reports and race specific tactics for free, and with less adverts :)
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Mebob
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Quote:
 
i probably wouldn't buy that many more models if they were cheaper, i'd just be happier about buying them. thing is, you're going to buy a unit of clan rats whether its 15 quid or 18, just because you need it any how.

I agree there, but what i meant was that the prices act as a deterrent.

I have a 1k Witch hunters army which i want to expand to 1.5k, but i havnt added those extra 500 points due to the prices being so high, if the prices were lower i would expand my army. Therefore i would buy that extra SoB unit because "whether its 15 quid or 18, just because you need it any how." But because the prices are so high, i havnt seen it worth my money when i can buy say a Korn album for the price of a metal character.
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probably wouldn't buy that many more models if they were cheaper, i'd just be happier about buying them. thing is, you're going to buy a unit of clan rats whether its 15 quid or 18, just because you need it any how.


That is true, and that's the basis GW is going by. A player who wants to play a particular army list at 2k pts will need to buy X number of models, regardless of the cost. However, high prices are inhibiting non-essential purchasing: that's the guy who might want to buy that shaggoth model even though he plays another race, only because he likes it, and this might lead to him starting a new beastman army, or the guy who might want to buy both brettonian and undead models (instead of just buying undead) to build his converted Mousillon-themed army. Another thing they are inhibiting is rate of purchase. The longer everyone needs to save to buy their models, the longer it takes to finish the army. Cheaper prices may mean you reap a max profit of $400 from 1 army list, while it would have been $500 at a higher price, but is the profit going to come in within 1 financial year, or 2 financial years?
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Throat Ripper
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Actually that made me think, if they dropped the prices, then more people would buy, but they would lost money, so if they kept prices at a medium then they lose a smaller amount because people would be happier that the prices had gone down so they would get a bigger profit. Upping the prices would just result in people turning away and they would lose even more.
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Ratphink
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Demagorgon, normally I'd agree with that opinion because its logical, but the problem with that explanations is that a well run company will actually survey its target audience to see how much they can raise the price. They then determine from the survey how much they can raise the price while still maintaining enough of a customer base to maximize profit. GW has been doing no such thing. All they do is they panic and hike prices. Panic more and hike prices.

They've completely lost touch with their consumer base, and are, in my opinion paying the price for it. Along with their bad contract moves like the LotR, they should never have signed for such a long period of time for what was, essentially, a fad that would die when all the movies were done.

It basically comes down to GW being very stupid as far as making financial decisions and ignoring the customer completely and entirely.

Though I will ascent that online gaming has become increasingly more popular. MMO's like WoW, Guild Wars, and the various other free stuff you can find being hosted by websites has been at an all time high. I mean, considering people are willing to pay monthly fees for a computer game is completely beyond me, but hey, it's the World we live in. :P

Though I don't think Online Shopping has much to do with it, besides maybe Ebay, which like you said is cutting GW off of some potential profits. They have a functioning Online Store, which I've made a good use of in the past.

Overall, I don't see GW going down and out, not completely. They will lose a few more bucks though by the looks of it before its done.
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Demagorgon
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@ Ratphink: The online shopping was a general comment I meant to aim at high street shops, to base the gw/Ebay connection on.

You make extremely good points. :)

My post was rather one sided; I should tell you I was reacting on emotions, not knowledge of business models, so here's hopefully a better rounded view. But I can't deny Games Workshop made some stupid mistakes *stares at Deagostini* The LotR thing has shown a huge lack of foresight. It bought in a lot of people, but relatively few long term players compared to people caught up in the novelty who just wanted to buy a little mini-Legolas to paint just to say they have one for example. The LotRmagazine deal that completely folded exemplifies this perfectly - it appealed to the wrong people and didn't cultivate a fanbase that was substantial or lasting - people that were interested in the game, not the fad. So, I do see your point, because you are right.

But I find the reaction to it and the ensuing cycle just kind of depressing, on a personal level if nothing else.

I agree that they have been catering to the wrong people and are reaping the results here, potentially driving away their long term customer base, the ones that bring in the profit, shouting 'lower prices, make it like it was x amount of years ago,' seems fruitless and possibly niave (I know this may be hypocrisy on my part, I am not on solid ground, this is just how I feel.) when I don't see how they can just revert to better times - if they could do that, they wouldn't be in this mess. What else can they do but raise prices? (This is a sincere question, I don't know and would like to.) At least, in the short term? I don't know.. it's hard to find something that'll keep the shareholders and customers happy without taking a risk that might might make the situation worse.

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MMO's like WoW, Guild Wars... at an all time high
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I agree with you Ratphink, games workshop simply don't seem to know the correct price for theyre model and i never saw any real studies about it.

Also, they would probably also gain a lot of money buy simply becoming seller to smaller store like most compagny do. The whole principle of controlling the line of supply is gone with internet shopping.

It would also have the added advantage of giving more flexibility to store in terms of price. I know my local gaming store can only give 10% less then GW Canada price, but these price don't follow currency change. It would cost me 20$ to get a battalion in US (about 1 hour from here) then buying at my local gaming shop.

Finally, if only they had made the lord of the ring model useable with warhammer model. If they we're the same size you would definetly see some warhamemr player buying them to get some special piece for they're army.

Mutate: About price raise, I think they can probably manage to change it by repackaging at lower prices (Just to make sure we don't feel totally ripped off) and stop making them higer. Also, make more special offers containing all the core for an army. You could get 2 boxes for each army, a battalion with only core troops and another with special troops and finally a boxe of hero and rare.
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