| GW's fondness for waving oversized swords around; Not so exaggerated after all? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18th July 2007 - 07:18 AM (528 Views) | |
| scrivener | 18th July 2007 - 07:18 AM Post #1 |
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Found this article on the ARMA site about the greatsword. The basic idea is the 5 foot greatsword did historically see relatively commonplace use, and weighed about 4-6 pounds (less than 3 kg) Even the heavier models are less than 5 kilos. So the greatsword did still have limited functionality, and you'd be a fool to try to fight with it effectively one-handed, but it is still physically possible to wave it around with one hand if it so tickles your fancy. I'm sure GW makes its swords that big for the dramatic effect, just wanted to share that they just might not be so ridiculous after all. |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 18th July 2007 - 10:12 AM Post #2 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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GW deliberately makes weapons over-sized, and hands and heads likewise. Look at the Lord of the Ring models for realistically scaled models. (which, i.m.o. look much, much cooler than warhammer models. I love the look of my Rohan army, even if they're not as much fun to play as Skaven) Anyway, the article is quite correct. Many people don't realise it, but swords are not very heavy at all. A normal one-handed arming sword tends to be 1.5 kilos or something, which is slightly over three pounds. No weapon that's not ceremonial weighs more than 8-10 pounds, and the vast majority stays under 6. As for two-handed greatswords, they were used in moderate numbers in the Early Modern age (not the Middle Ages, mind, but then again Warhammer is mostly set after the middle ages, approximately 16th century I'd say) to support pikemen. The two-handed swordsmen could knock enemy pikes out of the way and attack more easily from the flank. They usually were the biggest and strongest soldiers too. They were never used in massed numbers on their own, but they did play a useful role. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| Warlock Rageaganish | 18th July 2007 - 04:49 PM Post #3 |
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!
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I've read in a few books that the best known units of greatswords were the Swiss and the Germans. THe Swiss used the longest swords, which reached at one point 70 inches (about 178 cm) HEre is a picture taken from a museum armory, with the sword description: ![]() Again, the piece's size and weight betrayed a functional and well-balanced weapon. László Töl adds: "The full length of the sword is 1808 mm, the full length of the blade is 1355 mm, the edge of the blade is 936 mm long, the length of the hilt is 306 mm, and the diameter of the cross-guard is 502 mm. The width of the blade is 46 mm, and its thickness is 7.5 mm. The 'neck' of the blade is 8.6 mm thick and 32 mm wide. The centre of gravity is 616 mm from the pommel. The sword weighs 3650g. The blade's cross-section is rhomboid in shape." Also, here is the correct way of holding a greatsword: ![]() Nothing like Conan the Barbarian isn't it? :lol: |
![]() WARNING: Critical thinking can lead to improved mental facility, decreased gullibility, increased social activism, an improved quality of discourse, and a better understanding of the surrounding world. May also lead to change of minds, revision of opinions and ignoring of bad political pundits. | |
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| Mutator | 19th July 2007 - 06:08 AM Post #4 |
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Retired fat dude
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No, that is one way of holding one of those swords. |
| Mostly harmless | |
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| scrivener | 19th July 2007 - 07:23 AM Post #5 |
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Yep, that method of holding a greatsword is for close range only, though holding the ricasso (the area above the blade that's being gripped) is a common technique in close combat with a greatsword, since it "shortens" the blade, allowing for better leverage in handling. The greatsword would be wielded like a normal sword against halberd and pike, using its long range against these likewise long-range weapons. The greatsword is almost a sword's version of polearms, in a way. I read from somewhere that as a greatsword-wielding Landsknecht closed in through the halberds/pikes, he would first wield the sword as normal to fight their long-range weapons with a long-range counter, then as he got into the distance behind the effective range of the halberd/pike he would switch to the ricasso grip for a close-range advantage. As that image shows, the greatsword could be used similar to a short spear with this method. Then, as fighting degenerated into a melee where the infantry blocks on both sides become one big mob, he would usually draw his short sword (the Katzbalger) instead for very close-range fighting. About GW's fondest for exaggerating heads, hands and weapons: I remember reading another article on psychology, on how children, when drawing people, would exaggerate the head, hands and feet, since these are the parts of the body that have the strongest emotive or personality elements. The rest of the body is there almost only to hold these parts together. There is a natural focus (which translates as a size exaggeration) on these parts of the body when the focus is on the character, rather than anatomy. It's like how the eyes are the emotive/personality part of all the head's features, so eyes are exaggerated in comic drawings (especially in manga). This has a big effect when creating a model that is more caricatural than anatomically correct for warhammer. To capture the personality of a goblin, for instance, the nose is very much exaggerated. For dwarves, skaven and gobbos this effect becomes even more pronounced, because these are naturally small races, so to balance their proportions in relation to the other races, they are given "small body" proportions, which involves a lower torso to head ratio, and shorter limbs. The result is the deformed monstrosity that is the clanrat...
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| Warlock Rageaganish | 19th July 2007 - 07:17 PM Post #6 |
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!
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True, I shouldn't have said it's the only way, my bad. But frankly, how many GW greatsword infantrymen are using that grip in close combat? The only things I've seen on those minis is the "Conan Grip" which is erroneous. This is were I was aiming that comment FYI.I had the chance to play with an 8.5 pounds replica at a SKA event. Just holding the greatsword the same way the empire greatswords carry it around would strain your wrists after 2 minutes. 8 pounds might not seems much, but don't forget that the actual leverance of the thing multiply the lenght to the weight. But waving the blade by the ricasso give it a surprisingly good defence potential as the blade get straight downward in front of your body. Against a single opponent, a few blocks, followed by an upward diagonal leg swipe that get you in that stabbing position in the picture was a very common routine executed by the SKA greatsword owner. Against pikes and halberd, I do not doubt that a standard grip would prove interesting, but my impression is that they would probably switch to that grip only as they swing the blade to lessen wrists tension. Anyway, I'm no expert, just putting my 2 cents. It's fine really as it's just a game, yet I'm wondering if clanrats are so out of proportion when you compare them to a rat instead of a human... |
![]() WARNING: Critical thinking can lead to improved mental facility, decreased gullibility, increased social activism, an improved quality of discourse, and a better understanding of the surrounding world. May also lead to change of minds, revision of opinions and ignoring of bad political pundits. | |
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| Mutator | 19th July 2007 - 09:30 PM Post #7 |
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Retired fat dude
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I have fought in mock combats ('touch of death') using "Conan Grip" with poorly made replicas which were both heavier and less balanced. Didnt strain my wrists or prove to be unduly taxing. But then again, I'm probably a lot bigger than you, so there was more weight at the other end to counter-balance ![]() But we agree (i) there are different styles for different situations and weapons, and (ii) GW weapons are too fat
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 19th July 2007 - 10:37 PM Post #8 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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Warhammer weapons are too fat. The Lord of the Rings weapons look fine to me. (but keep breaking off for some reason...) |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| Frankensqueek | 19th July 2007 - 10:44 PM Post #9 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Is it me or should the chap in the photo have his right hand round the other way. To me it seems like this would be both more comfortable and more efficient. James |
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My Army | |
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| scrivener | 20th July 2007 - 12:40 AM Post #10 |
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i guess that explains the fatness then. ![]() @ franky: Image from 15th century swiss/german manual It might just be bad art, but I think it's the transition from regular sword grip to ricasso-grip that gives that funny hold. The right hand would be in that position already, and it won't be a good idea to switch both hand grips. The issue would be the forward ricasso-gripping hand, and why it doesn't go for the usual staff-fighting grips. |
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The only things I've seen on those minis is the "Conan Grip" which is erroneous. This is were I was aiming that comment FYI.


