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Champions in Units; do you use them
Topic Started: 30th January 2007 - 05:38 PM (591 Views)
scrivener
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*toot*

I take champs in monks because my monks go all the way, priest, full command, magic banner, the works.

The only reason I can see on taking a champ in a clanrat unit is if I want the warlord in the front rank killing regular R&F. Against some large, weak units the warlord's kills can help sway the balance where our static CR advantage may not be enough. You get challenged, you don't want to send your warlord to the back rank, so the proxy champ handles the challenge while the warlord continues hacking away elsewhere.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Underlord Burrows
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The Ever Shiny, Muse and Co Cookie Cutter

I model champs in all my units just only take them in my harder hitting units.


Underlord Burrows
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Morkskittar
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The Tunnel's Resident Rodent Ecologist

I always put a champion in my SV and PM units, and in units where I have important Characters...

Pillz
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

I used to take champions for everything. No exceptions. However, recently after reading some posts around here, I only take Champions for Stormvermin, Monks and maybe 1 Clanrat unit if a character will go in there. It really saves a bucket load of points to be spent on other things!! ^_^

- Sammy
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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Sebrent
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I'd like to give a nice little demonstration for champions in units. Fully ranked clanrats with standard will start combat against a bloodthirster with 5 CR (ranks, standard, outnumbering) thus the bloodthirster needs to inflict 6 wounds to win (a 5 is a loss due to musician). However, the bloodthirster is powerful and will have 8 attacks while frenzied giving him a chance to create anywhere from 0 to 8 CR hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+. 8 attacks * (2/3) hit * (5/6) wound = 4.44444 wounds. Things are looking good already.

Now, we want to have as many chances to defeat the bloodthirster as possible, thus, we challenge him with our clanrat champion who is as dead as they come save some miracle. Since overkill can only generate +5 CR and the champion only has 1 wound, the bloodthirster can only get a maximum CR of 6 ... making it very unlikely to break your clanrats (no autobreak since it doesn't outnumber). Now you have not only increased your chances of not fleeing from combat, but you've also only lost 1 clanrat to a 650 pt Greater Daemon (you can start laughing now). This allows you to have at least 2 combats where you start with full CR.

Now what's the significance of this? Daemons are crybabies & quitters about losing combat. When they lose combat, they take two tests. The first one, the subtract how much they lost combat by from their Ld and roll the 2D6, taking as many wounds as the roll minus their modified Ld. Then they take a second roll on their unmodified Ld that, if failed, results in them dying instantly (they leave the mortal realm). Thus, 2+ rounds of combat starting with 5 static CR (in my case 3+ rounds since 30 - 8 attacks is 22 ... full rank bonus still if I don't break, lol) gives you two chances to defeat a greater daemon using less than 1/3 of his points cost and static CR.

Now think if you had a unit of clanrats and a unit of slaves, each with a champion. Clanrats or slaves take the charge, other unit comes in second round ... first champion is dead, second champion now makes a challenge ... you are now going to have SEVERAL rounds with full static CR + 1/2 for a flank/rear charge. Goodbye to the greater daemon of khorne as he just got pummeled by 200 pts of rats ... still less than 1/3 of his cost (1/3 of his cost is 216.66666).

So you didn't bring jezzails? Who cares! Your clanrats and slaves can handle the big-bad guys just like they do everything else ... with numbers and sacrificing your own champions!

*Note: The bloodthirster was used since it has the most attacks of all the Greater Daemons, thus the highest threat rating in generating CR*
----Skaven Mathhammer
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Grey Seer Starr
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Visionary
hmm, good advice. I never thought of challenging a greater deamon with a unit champion :huh: . Would love to see the face of the opponent if his precious deamon got defeated in this way. :o

greets GSS
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

There are several big "if"s in that scenario.

Firstly, your enemy has to have something big and nasty with lots of attacks that still loses from Clanrats through combat res.

Secondly, he needs to actually engage a clanrat unit frontally without support with that hugely expensive model.

With or without a champion, any chaos player worth his salt and 20" flying move rate will avoid that scenario like the plague.

I've very, very rarely needed a champion for something like this in my games. And with the 50 or so points I save on them, I can get another nightrunner or giant rat unit which is a lot more helpful.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

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Mormeguil
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baby nurgle
Well, i always find the champion usefull to challenge caracter that way the combat resolution stay the same but all the overkill doenst make another dead rat and this allow me to keep rank longuer.

Other then that they protect character and...they look nice in unit. Other then that there are no use to using champion.
I have a few bare metal dark elf model for sale, if interested pm me.
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scrivener
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*toot*

That's a good point I never thought of. Using the champ to absorb damage from a quantity-killing character. The tricky bit to it is to know when you'll be up against a character who can deal enough damage to your unit that the sacrifice of the champ will be warranted?
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Lord Lughtigern
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The Mad Ratter.

@Sebrent: I understand what you're saying, but I don't quite agree with it. It relys on the Greater Daemon not being supported (which is highly unlikely) among other things such as passing terror tests and it attacking you full in the front. Say that flying monster flys behind your units? You could turn to face him, but then you expose your rear to the front of other Chaos nasties.

The same exmple should the flank (or rear) be charged:

4.4444 wounds, yaddayadda + 1 flank (or +2 rear) for him.

+1 outnumbering, +1 standard for you.

It's not quite as impressive if you play against a competent general. (have you seen the Bloodthirst tactica on Daemonic Legion?)

Anyways, what I'm saying is, it's not gonna happen.

Quote:
 
Now what's the significance of this? Daemons are crybabies & quitters about losing combat. When they lose combat, they take two tests.


I don't believe this is correct... It's they take one test, and then compare it to two different values. First, their modified, and then their unmodified. They only roll once.
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Sebrent
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The main point I was trying to make wasn't that champs are the answer to beating bloodthirsters. The point I was trying to make was that champions are good for absorbing damage, thus preserving your rank bonuses. The bloodthirster just showed that there are enemies in which the challenge also lowers the maximum CR the enemy is capable of generating through that combat.
----Skaven Mathhammer
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Mormeguil
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baby nurgle
Quote:
 

That's a good point I never thought of. Using the champ to absorb damage from a quantity-killing character. The tricky bit to it is to know when you'll be up against a character who can deal enough damage to your unit that the sacrifice of the champ will be warranted?


Since clanrats are bad at surviving and probably don't inflict wound on the opponent the should work fairly well, the only annoying thing is to fight a low fighty hero, lets say a battle standard bearer. In that case you might save only one model, not fully covering for the cost of your champion.

Otherwise pretty much every hero should be enougth trouble for you to help your opponent also, skaven character are really movable due to lead from the back (opponent challenge, you put them behind and you move out from the unit). In that case having a lot of units with heros is very usefull because it allow you to constantly keep them well protected. THis tactic is mostly usefull in magic heavy army.(I stil remeber last tournament i had. I asked "Do you do any challenge?" They always said yes (why they did I will never know) i refused and send my character behind. Pretty often the enemy unit would need to grind trought me and I would be able to move out next turn and keep my hero alive.
I have a few bare metal dark elf model for sale, if interested pm me.
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discostu3
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Stormvermin
Sebrent
Feb 2 2007, 08:40 AM
The main point I was trying to make wasn't that champs are the answer to beating bloodthirsters. The point I was trying to make was that champions are good for absorbing damage, thus preserving your rank bonuses. The bloodthirster just showed that there are enemies in which the challenge also lowers the maximum CR the enemy is capable of generating through that combat.

Here Here!

This brings back memories to me anhialating a Khorne army led by Mr Bloodthirster himself.

In that battle a unit of 25 CR later joined by 24 slaves held up the bloodthirster soo long that it managed to destabalise itself to death, mainly due to the champion, and cheiftan sacrificing themselves in 2 turns.
Admitedly the player was being a bit reckless (who wouldnt be when you have a bloodthirster), and i think it was the first time he used it (but as a skaven i dont listen to weaklings excuses).

The thing is with mega powerful monsters is that I find they dont get much support as most of thier points are sunk into the monster who can only fight X number of times :lol: and can only take on X number of enemies. Unless they are very experienced with using Greater Deamons.
So I'm attacking your slaves with 5 chosen knights **throws dices** and horses **throws more dices** ok you are at -9 to Ld there is no way ...** a dice throw** .... F@@k !
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