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If there was a war machine for 115pts that inflicted strength 5 hits using the 5" template, would you think that was a bit ridiculous?
Yes 14 (56%)
No 6 (24%)
This Poll Is Stupid 5 (20%)
Total Votes: 25
War Machine S5 w/ 5" Template
Topic Started: 25th January 2007 - 11:36 PM (667 Views)
Sebrent
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Let's say there existed an army that already had other war machines and missile troops. Now they have a new war machine that costs only 115pts, inflicts strength 5 hits, and uses the 5" template (the BIG template). Would you think that was a bit ridiculous? Well then you should take a look at the empire's new missile battery because that is exactly what it is.... a friggin strength 5 mortar
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scrivener
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*toot*

This is the Helstorm rocket launcher, i believe? My problem with it is not so much that not only were the first primitive rockets nowhere as powerful and served more as psychological weapons, that this is a human invention and nothing to do with dwarves, but also that eventually in 7th edition GW will be inclined to do the same across the board to match it up and bring other army's artillery at the same level. I'd really hate it if we end up with Artilleryhammer. :unsure:
hannanibal
 
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Clanlord Trask
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Quiet, I'm plotting.

i can live with the harrowing ruleset for the rocket launcher. What i can't seem to live with is the 'backstory' for its inclusion. I mean, it goes from being unheard of to being in the armylist. Just the concept of a fully fledged rocket battery apparently sprouting from the ground does my head in.

I mean, at least with the Warplightening Cannon there was a development. The Skaven had the Doomwheel with a far smaller cannon on it, and the latest embodiment of it has grown from that. Where as the Helstrom was some guy who 'saw some fireworks' one day.
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The Campaigner
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Warwolt the disturbed assassin
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And continued for several years to at all try to get the rockets go the same way you fired them. So there WAS development :P
I hate the rules, I hate the model but the idea of Fireworks are pretty cool... why not just make it firing ALOT of rockets? So you get say... 3D6 S3 Hits instead? Much cooler :P
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scrivener
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*toot*

I guess the fluff has it that he borrowed the technology from the Cathayans, and simply did some amendments to it. A problem with the ruleset is the template and damage doesn't reflect what a rocket does. It's not a tomahawk, it's a metal tube holding a "diluted" form of blackpowder (that's how rockets can propel forward instead of going immediately exploding) that is usually packed with scrapnel. unlike the grenade which can kill from its concussive shockwave, a primitive rocket kills with scrapnel. How does something derived from fireworks manage to do S5 template damage?
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

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"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Madthing
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Presumably each shot is supposed to represent a number of shots, so that the 'template' as it were is not the explosive effect of a single rocket but the impact of a large number of rockets hitting and exploding in the same general area. This justification is used for the Whirlwind using an ordnance template in 40k, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the alleged explanation.
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

As Ive said before, I hate the fluff, rules and model of the Hellstorm battery. Gives Warhammer a bad name in my opinion. I may play Empire, but I shall never use such a weapon.

- Sammy
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Bodacious
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Sammy the Squid
Jan 26 2007, 11:47 AM
As Ive said before, I hate the fluff, rules and model of the Hellstorm battery. Gives Warhammer a bad name in my opinion. I may play Empire, but I shall never use such a weapon.

- Sammy

QFT, my opinion exactly -_- .

Cheers,
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

I voted stupid, because it's a leading question. There could be any number of different rules that make strength 5 and a big template reasonable. Such as one use per game. Or shoots in a random direction.
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Sebrent
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I think it's horrible =p. An empire player could take 4 mortars (replacing any of those mortars with a great cannon), 2 rocket batteries (replacing any of those with a volleygun) and then for core they can take handgunners/crossbowmen as a regiment and then have 2 detachments of either handgunners/crossbowmen/archers. If you charge the parent or the detachments, you'll have 3 units stand and shoot at you ... hope you don't panic. I have a feeling those win-at-the-cost-of-having-fun people are flocking to this. Heck, you could even take some engineers with pidgeon bombs and hochland long rifles so you can snipe characters ... even upgrade a marksman in each parent unit of gunners and give him a hochland. The ability to abuse the empire into an expensive game of yhatzee has been expanded immensely in my mind.
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Mormeguil
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baby nurgle
Honestly the model is horrible, the fluff is horrible, the strengh... it's pretty good, a bit too good but nothing that would completely break the game but it just doesnt fit with the logical strenght of the device.

I would personnally make it ALWAYS scatter, so if you have a hit you do it in the direction of the small black arrow.

I would strill prefer if it made mutliple strenght 4 small template. Maybe D3 small template that scatter, you resolve each one seperatly.
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Chieftain Cazgar
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Sebrent, what are you complaining about engineers with long rifles for? that's nothing compared to outrider champs with them, BS5 and picking out characters, great <_< . possibly worth the specail choice alone i heard someone say.

i think the rocket thingys a bit odd, i accept the rules though. i mean the bret stone thrower is S5, i know its a smaller template, but its only 90pts.

the empire is the shooty army now, fine by me. i always had a prejudice against dwarves for i thought it was them. and then i trounced a dwarf gun line army, empire are only T3 and have worse Ld, so it should be a walk in the park :P
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Sebrent
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I have to say Cazgar, excellent points. As Skaven with tunneling teams, I don't think we have as much to worry about them as it is "just another war machine crew," but think about those poor armies that don't have anything like our tunneling teams. Sure, some of them have flying units, but SAD armies shoot flying units down ... ever seen what massed fire does to Harpies/Pegasus Knights/Terradons/etc?

As usual, Skaven are going to be fine ... our 6th edition book makes us competitive with the new 7th edition books. However, other armies are not as blessed imho and will suffer in the face of playing styles of ill-repute. Seriously ... what is an army of goblins going to do? Hope they get the first turn and hit the empire war machines with their own war machines first is all I can imagine...
:P
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Chieftain Cazgar
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gobbo players will just have to hope that their superior numbers make it to the enemys single rank hand gunners and smash them in combat res.

and wanna know the way to avoid being stood and shot at by 3 units? charge the detachment :P . i guess they can flee that charge, but it beats you having yourself shot to peices by 3 lots of them.

i've not played with the new empire yet (against or with) however i'm playing tomorrow night using my brets, so i'll either see my knights riddled with bullet holes in their armour or have those daft imperials dangling on the end of my lances ^_^

i'm hoping to go on the empire side though (we usually do 2 on 2 battles) that way i can see the might of them without having my knights pay the price lol.

fortunately he has a pretty balanced army. a cannon, some knights, couple preists, couple captains and a mage. around 30 swordsmen, 20 hand gunners and some outriders.

as to the question on how other, less superior, races will fare against the black powder heavy armys of the empire: they have been coping with dwarf gun lines for long enough now, and dark elf bow lines, and even the odd skaven skyre line. surely by now they should of developed plans against such foes? i mean the men of the empire are only BS3, so on average they'll be hitting on 5s. its the same as the tau army in 40k, lots of very heavy fire power but they lack in ballistic skill.

and, any decent army has screens for their flyers (i know my pegasus have men at arms at any rate lol ^_^ ) so that the flyers can charge that artillery crew as soon as they are in range but without having to deal with 50 hand gun bullets too. then they smash them in combat, over run off the board, come back on and are now ready to charge into the back of the confused gun line.
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kingle tut
Chieftain
I would have said a strength 5, artillerydice range, panic-causing flame template weapon would be ridiculous...but I've seen the misfires. ;)

I really can't say (other than about the fluff) if this rocket thingy really is crazy without seeing the full rules for it- which apparently shouldn't be posted on this site. If I see it used in a game, then I'll know- but unless it never misfires or "stops shooting for that turn" etc. it's probably quite balanced.

Besides...strength 5 is useless against some things- if there's enough of them...
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