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| Saddam Hussein's execution | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30th December 2006 - 01:54 PM (557 Views) | |
| Chieftain Cazgar | 31st December 2006 - 11:51 AM Post #16 |
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Prophet of Plastic
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i know that its a futile wish, but i'm hoping that the next bad guy won't arrive for a few years yet lol. saves our soldiers wandering off to foreign lands to get killed, or atleast saves me from seeing it on the news. i think that death was a decent enough thing to do. gets it out of the way and done with. besides, if he's dead he can't get released and re-become the ultimate bad guy. i don't think it'll be a russian, mainly because it's a big country near (or in, i don't have the energy to find out) europe. it's much easier to go slaughter men that live far away and have very different lives or cultures to ourselves. russia's one of the super powers (or trys to hang out with them anyway) so it's prob best to keep it as an ally. it'll be in the middle east if its anywhere, they won't be happy till theres little more than a smouldering pile of rubble there. or a smouldering pile of rubble surounded by people that are pally with america. |
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| Bassik Dwarveripper | 31st December 2006 - 12:06 PM Post #17 |
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Unregistered
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Now this is one of those things that cause anti-americanism... complete unawareness of geography. When we were cute Dutch boys and girls with shorts and clogs, we had to learn were EVERY country was. And when the soviet union fell apart, we had to learn a lot more. But I never met any American who knew what the deal with europe is. Now, I do realise its not actually America's fault, its their education system thats flawed. And if we talk about educational systems, I don't know how many Dutchmen here follow a MBO on a ROC, but if they do they know we can't actually criticize other's educational systems... at least, untill the point where they favour creationism over the theory of evolution. Then we seriously have to worry. I realise I got off topic during my off topic comment in the off topic forum... I got to change my medication. *calls Mork* Hey, on a sidenote, since my post has already abandoned any hope, ye who reads this, I had an idea: some kind of discussion/philosophy forum? You know, only for the experienced UE members, were we can discuss the middle east, death penalty, God, life and death, and why ratogres are so cool. I would even host it on another sub-UE board, like pitfighters, if anyone is interested. |
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| Chieftain Cazgar | 31st December 2006 - 12:38 PM Post #18 |
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Prophet of Plastic
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lol bas, i'm not american. i'm english. i LIVE in europe. thats how bad education got... lol. i never liked geography, never paid much attention in it, and dropped it soon as i could lol. i have a world map on my desk, its just i can't see it any more cus i have models and paint and paint pots littered upon it. and it doesn't tell me what continent its in anyway lol. i know where it is, just not what continent it likes to be in these days |
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| scrivener | 31st December 2006 - 12:48 PM Post #19 |
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*toot*
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I'm not against the death penalty for one, and I can see why they executed him, if solely for the benefit of giving those persecuted by him some closure. My problem with the general situation is the chain of events that has led to it. It's not a clear-cut good v. evil, heroic take-down the bad guy situation. It was a flawed, unjustified invasion that was either stupidly misguided or maliciously deceptive, followed by a kangaroo court where the decision was already decided beforehand and only set up to maintain some appearance of due process, and an execution for public policy reasons. It just taints the whole event in my eyes. |
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| Bassik Dwarveripper | 31st December 2006 - 12:53 PM Post #20 |
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Unregistered
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Blood Vixen mentioned Brittish educational system to me... explains the Chav movement ![]() @Scriv: A revolvershot in the head would have been much more stylish.
Indeed. When the Dutch got liberated in WW2 by Canadians, Brittish, Turks, and some Americans(tho they claim it was only them and the Brittish, but the graveyards here tell us different) we were saved by heroes! They defeated an opressing reich, and didn't took controll over the freed countries (untill they deployed nuclear warheads here, but lets forget about that). Now that was a justified war. But this... I realy don't know what to think of it. Why do they actually bother with such small countries who pose relativeley not much threat, when we have North Korea doing secret atrocities and the People's Republic of China violating more human laws then America? Isn't it the Bush Doctrine to invade China and N. Korea right now? Mutate: @ Scar: true dat. |
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| spoty | 31st December 2006 - 12:54 PM Post #21 |
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The Deathmaster's best friend!
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This is the next big evil thing![]() Creepy King |
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| Scarfester | 31st December 2006 - 12:58 PM Post #22 |
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Scaaarrrrghhh
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My own personal views are quite conflicting, in many ways. I guess im relatively indifferent to the death penalty (in this country), but our views on this have no relevance what so ever, as Saddam was trialed in his own country, under their own laws. However, if I was in charge I would not have had him executed. The reasoning for this is that the Sunni Iraqi's (those that follow Saddam) just have more excuse to continue with insurgencies and suicide bombings now. True that keeping Saddam in jail would only have done the same, but it would have been to a lesser degree. All the Shia (other major religous group in Iraq and anti-Saddam) have done essentialy, is make a martyr of their enemy, in the eyes of his followers. Bad strategy, when they are aiming for piece, or at least claiming they are. If the decision was in my hands, I think I would have kept him in jail until he died of natural causes. He was an old man and it wouldnt have taken long to be honest. Doing this would have shown that Saddam was entirely removed from power and was now no threat to anyone. More importantly, the Sunni's couldnt claim that he had been martyr'd. Im not entirely convinced, one way or another though that this was not done deliberately by the new government in Iraq to further provoke the Sunni's into more action. This way its more likely that the Shia government will have the American's and allied forces sticking around to help enforce their new policies. Quite frankly I think the two main factions are as bad as each other in some ways. Its just that the Shia have made a deal with the west to get us cheaper oil, so they get the backing. :rolleyes: The manor of execution was a further piece of evidence that leads me to believe that it was a provocatory act by the Iraqi government. Saddam asked that if he was executed, that he would wish to be executed like a soldier and be killed b firing squad. The new Iraqi government decided to strip him of any dignity and hang him like a thief, to degrade his legacy. As to whats going to happen next.............well anything could really. The troubles between Palestine, Israel and Siria have been put on hold for a short while. Everone knows that this could flair up at any given opportunity. Most likely Iran's president, Ahmood Ahnidinajad (sp?) will be next to suffer the wrath of the west. Looks like there will be a lame excuse to start another war in the middle east. Things will be more reluctant this time, because most of the west now acknolages that the war in Iraq was unjustified and illegal, as per the laws of the UN. Also Iran has a very large standing army, so it will be a much bigger and more difficult fight than in Iraq. Russia will be left alone, because no one wants another cold war. Pretty much as simple as that. ![]() Those are my views on the matter. Take them as you wish! Bas - I dont think we need another sub-forum here. Off Topic will suffice when it comes to this type of discussion. Keeping it for just the more regular members of the board, will only alienate more opinions and facts which are all needed in discussions of this nature. ![]() Im glad we have a lot of sensible members that can discuss these matters in a reasonable manner. We should embrace this facet of our little community, not sub-divide it as Iraq has done with its people. |
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| Bassik Dwarveripper | 31st December 2006 - 01:03 PM Post #23 |
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Unregistered
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Isn't it the Rules that people like Sadam get courted here in the hague, btw? And realy, if they had to kill him... granting his last wish wasn't too much to ask? A last act of "human compassion", by lack of a betther word? mutate: Hey, not to add anything to my side, but just to the general topic. A friend of mine is a Kurd, and she says she is happy Sadam got killed and only wished they used chemicals to do it painfully. Now, here is someone who suffered personally from Sadam. A lot of europeans and americans lost relatives by hitler, and even I would love to have hitler tortured to death. So I guess its all a matter of involvement, makes me understand the decision to hang him a lot more. Not that I say it was the right thing, but it was not an act of cruelty. |
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| Madthing | 31st December 2006 - 01:57 PM Post #24 |
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Chieftain
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'Threat' is quite relative. What is the danger of China? Will it start a nuclear war? Does it breed terrorists to throw at its enemies? China has far more to lose by rocking the boat than what they may stand to gain. Its massive economic growth depends on having an affluent West to purchase its products. The Chinese don't seem to care about ideology, so there really isn't any reason to pick fights without a big prize. How does North Korea threaten America? Yes, it plays around with nukes, but last time I checked it doesn't have the missiles to send them to the continental USA. It acts like it's besieged on all sides, and only seems concerned with making sure nobody will attack it. It doesn't seem to have the necessary ideology to create committed terrorists or the like, and generally keeps to itself. Moreover, I imagine that both South Korea and Japan, the two most interested parties, probably don't want to get into a war with desperate, deranged people with nukes. East Asia isn't really a good place for an invasion. Everything up in that corner of the world has been quite stable for the past few decades, unlike the Middle East, where it seems that there's a war every other year. As long as things stay stable, the Americans would probably find it a bit tricky to invade. And of course, Middle Eastern countries don't have somebody like China lurking in the area to protect them. |
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| Bassik Dwarveripper | 31st December 2006 - 03:14 PM Post #25 |
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Unregistered
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One more thing: America and allies' motives may not have been good, but what they did was good, making us allmost seem like the good guys... |
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| Llamarama | 31st December 2006 - 05:37 PM Post #26 |
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Retired CoXIII
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I did my thesis on American war crimes (focusing specifically on Abu Gharib/Guantanamo and My Lai) and trust me...Saddam got the better end of all of this.
Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...
I view it this way. There is only so much public opinion that a given administration has to work with. Every day they need to weigh their options carefully because they use it for everything, every piece of random legislation has it's price. The war in Iraq used up basically everything they had and then some; they are deep in the red and every day it keeps dropping. The public won't allow it to happen again, no matter what they say. *Shrugs*
Personally, I would argue that we are still in the cold war. This phase of the cold war, however, is not about the USSR and some vague threat the US uses to get its policies pushed through. The focus shifted to the middle east, more or less. There are a remarkable number of similarities between now and then. The fear. Anyone that lives in the states can remind you of that, especially after the towers came down. It's a garrison state mentality, every civilian needs to be ready. What are you doing to protect your home and family? Are you buying a bomb shelter? Are you buying duct tape to tape up your windows? Are you doing everything you can to make sure they are safe? Buy your stuff, keep the economy running like a peacetime war machine and go on with your lives. The government is here to protect you! Civilian evacuation drills, orange threat level! You see what I'm getting at here? Don't even get me started about the hot wars within the cold wars. Yes, the Cold War (with Russia) had lots of hot wars within it too, just like Iraq and Afghanistan. Vietnam, Korea, Guatemala, etc. Meh, it's new years. I'm not going to think about this anymore today.
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...And all this time I thought there was only one way to "retire" from the Council! What you call "retire", I call a "stay of execution"..whats in a word? DM Mik!![]() Please make an effort to read the stickies before posting. Use the 'mutate' button in the upper right of your post instead of posting another in succession. Forum rules, etiquette, and trade policy | |
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| GrimviewGrot | 31st December 2006 - 11:57 PM Post #27 |
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The Uber-Grot
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Please.
Yeah... American education systems also leave out that Canadians, in both world wars, were feared by the Germans, as they were basically the Allied Shock Troops. In World War I, under General Arthur Currie, Canadians were the ones to end the Battle of Paschendaele (one of the bloodiest battles of the war, with approximately 1/4 of a million dead between the two sides, and another 1/2 a million wounded, here), took Vimy Ridge (here) , and were generally one of the most feared and respected forces of the war. In World War II, Juno Beach was the second most heavily defended, and was taken with the second lowest amount of dead for the Allies. They also made it the furthest inland of any other Allied force on D-Day, and were the closest to capturing their objective of any of the five beach forces. (more here) This all from a nation that, at the time, had less than ten million people. (had to point it all out, people. :P) But, back on topic- Saddam has become a martyr, in my opinion, and martyrs are never good to give your foe. While I'm not going to argue that his death was a bad thing, the events that led to it are going to echo throughout history for many more years now. @ Llama: The fear is always present. You may have heard a few famous little quotes that I belive the American governments of the past fifty or sixty years have kept in mind very clearly...
All of those quotes said by Adolf Hitler. (the starred-in text, obviously, was a comment from me. :P) |
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| RandommaN | 2nd January 2007 - 12:28 AM Post #28 |
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Warlord
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I think that he deserved to be punished, and if hanging is the Iraqi way to punish mass murdering dictators then so be it, but I don't like the way it was carried out.
Yes, ecpecially the way the execution was carried out. I saw footage of his last moments on the news. He was hung by a disorganised mob of balaclava clad militia, who taunted and insulted him before he died. Whilst Sadam was so calm and controlled, he just seemed supeior to them in every way. The reporter called them "bullying thugs", and I have to agree with him.
I have to disagree with you there, I think that Saddam (and all war criminals and "terrorists") deserve fair treatment, "leaving him to rot" would be acceptable (if the Iraqis wanted it), but I think that they (the Americans) should start treating their prisoners of war a bit better. And get on with it and give them a trial, David Hicks (an Australian man who was allegedly trained by Al Quida) has been awaiting a trial for years, he least they could do is let us have him back to deal with him under our laws.
That is an awsomwe Idea, it must be done! umm I do count as an "experienced UE member", don't I?
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| “O! many a shaft, at random sent, Finds mark the archer little meant! And many a word, at random spoken, May soothe or wound a heart that's broken!" - Sir Walter Scott | |
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| Worsneek the warped swarmer | 2nd January 2007 - 01:08 AM Post #29 |
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Master rat of annoyance
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But an act of revenge, (which in this case I find it it's right place). But I still don't find it a rational way to make way for a new Iraq that should learn from its mistakes and not just give in to feelings -this comment was purely political But when looking onto the humane part of this, I believe hanging to be (under the right circumstances) one of the most humane ways of execution (assumed you break your neck in the fall). This guy should by torture agree to his mistakes, even though this does not make "us" better, it might still help the victims in this case -this comment was purely seen from my friend's point of view (family is political refugees) Conclusion: people get on! wether it was the rigth thing to do or not, the fact is he's dead wether it was a humane or inhumane way. I personally think that if he'd put to prison he would maybe not fast but eventually break free. Still got a lot of supporters, this was also the reason of executing the execution (is this sentence right???) as fast as possible. |
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