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| How to not lose... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 7th November 2006 - 06:31 AM (1,138 Views) | |
| Chieftain Cazgar | 9th November 2006 - 01:03 PM Post #16 |
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Prophet of Plastic
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well personally in 2k games i like my seer on a bell, however if he takes lots of shooting a large target, be it toughness 6 or not is going to be taking damage from the offeset he sounds like the kind of player who will go mage heavy, so i'd still take a seer for magic defence. kit him out with a staff of sorcery and perhaps a eye of the horned rat or dispell scroll. i can't stress enough how important it is to not give him that hill just for the sake of it. sure he may complain, but if he's that good a general he won't need it will he? i'd take 2 engineers and a cheiftan BSB with storm banner to back up your seer. have a couple scrolls and a storm deamon on the engineers so they can multi task. i would suggest 2 units of tunneling teams, of 3 or 4 men strong and some fast paced moulder stuff to beat down his shooting before it has chance to make too much of an impact on the battle. other than get lots of cheap troops with the points left so that any shooting casualtys won't be felt. other than that good luck
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| AMP187 | 5th December 2006 - 06:22 AM Post #17 |
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Clanrat
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Hey guys, it's me again. Just thought I'd chime in again, 'cuz I just got owned when I played Skaven for the first time since I made this. I'm still pretty puzzled about how to make skaven effective as even my full-strength 25 strong units were being ran off in the first turn by Dark Elves. It pretty much went the same way as I've described before, except this time I bought a Storm Banner, used a Warp Lightning Cannon and made my Gutter Runners Tunnellers. Unfortunately they didn't pop up in the second turn which was unfortunate because my Storm Banner wore off in turn 2. I must admit I had extreme bad luck throughout the fight (routinely missing all attacks, or wounds haha) and my WLC was completely ineffective as out of 3 shots, he misfired twice, the second time killing him. (The game ended in Turn 4 with my whole army dead). My Warlock Engineer miscast in turn 2, (Double 1's on the Miscast Table) miscasting and blowing up himself and a chunk of the unit he was in (Stormvermin). My ratling gun misfired in turn 2, blowing himself up. And I had a unit run from combat, causing a chain run that ran off all my slaves and 1 unit of clanrats. All-in-all, nothing really went well. Except my gutter runners finally emerged in the last turn to run off his reapers, only to be then charged in his turn by Witch Elves (dead). Tips would be good to help me actually be able to beat stuff in close combat (I know flanking would be good but I suck at setting it up, plus his mobility makes it really hard). Anyway, thanks for the help guys!
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'08l Skaven Record 8-1-3 '08 Daemons Record 3-0-1 My Skaven Army Diary
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| squeekenator | 5th December 2006 - 09:42 AM Post #18 |
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Chieftain
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You sound like you have a chronic case of bad luck. Taking another army won't help you with the dice gods. However, I don't see how you're being nailed so badly, even with that luck. DE shooting isn't that nasty, and the Black Horror can be dispelled by a single scroll. Could you get your opponent's army list? That would make it easier to help. |
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| Mormeguil | 5th December 2006 - 04:12 PM Post #19 |
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baby nurgle
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Maybe a wave tactic would be more effective. Put a first line of slave, then a line of clanrats then some plague monks. Give your army a battle standard bearer with the storm banner that you will use halfway from the dark elf line. Try to get a lot of giant rats and night runners to use as harrasser. You can also try to cut the ratling gun and go with more magic to replace it. Like a grey seer and 2 warlock engineer. |
| I have a few bare metal dark elf model for sale, if interested pm me. | |
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| Chieftain Cazgar | 5th December 2006 - 05:01 PM Post #20 |
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Prophet of Plastic
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it seems that it was mostly bad luck on your part that cost you the game, not really your list or tactics. the wave battle line sounds like it could help. its shame your tunnlers and storm banner didn't work more effectivly together. mine work like a double act. banner goes on, they miss all shots and then my tunnelers pop up and slice and dice the RBTs crewmen. then again i'm probably quite lucky lol! i wouldn't bother with the WLC anyway, never did much for me. have you tried out PCBs against him? i'd of thought 2 units of PCBs with say 3 units of monks, 3 of clan rats and 3 of slaves would mean you have lots of stuff that doesn't mind being shot at, or the rest of your army doesn't. slaves won't panic the clannies. when that line falls back you activate the banner to protect your clannies. and then should a unit or 2 drop back in cowardice the monks will be unaffected and continue on regardless. try running 2 engineers kitted out for casting and dispelling, a BSB with storm banner and then a preist with a PC and bands of power. they will try and disepell your lightning and then you activate the bands of power. in the first round of combat he'll have strength 10, ripping open any kind of armour the foe may have. i agree that we could better help you if we knew his list. |
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| AMP187 | 5th December 2006 - 08:15 PM Post #21 |
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Clanrat
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I'd like to give you his list but he changes it up a little every game. The one I've listed before (not every precise, i know) is pretty much the general idea of his army. I'm thinking my atrocious defeats are partly to do with horrendous luck (happens almost every game haha) and also probably a misunderstanding of how to use my skaven. I'm not trying to brag or anything but I don't think I'm a bad general or anything because I've been pretty successful with Chaos and Orcs n' Gobbos so it must be something else... |
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'08l Skaven Record 8-1-3 '08 Daemons Record 3-0-1 My Skaven Army Diary
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| rathstar | 15th December 2006 - 10:17 PM Post #22 |
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Clanrat
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Hi, Each of your lists seems to have a few pts sinks in it. I would try to remove the fat from your lists to really outnumber the dark elves. Drop all champions from all units. Skaven win by combat res and an extra str 3 attack will not change anything. Gutter runner tunneling teams (unless you want them to cross fire enemy) are fine at four models. Also try to fit in 2 units, so you have a 75% chance that atleast one comes up on turn 2. The dark elves seems to be beating you by shooting and magic, so you should amend your list to counter this. Buy 2 scrolls for the engineer, let the magic missile spells go, and wait for the nasty spells, one's which restrict movement or give extra movement and the nasty black horror. He really shouldn't be getting the spell off so much as others have said. If you don't want to go all defense go for the infamous twins; 2 WE with storm daemon and 3 scrolls. With 4 dispel dice and 3 scrolls he should never get any magic of consequence off. 3 Scrolls is probably be over the top in 1500 so consider the warpstone charm instead of one scroll on the storm daemon WE to reroll a miscast or a roll of a 1 to see if storm daemon runs out. His best shooting, but also the easiest to take out is his repeater bolt throwers. a second gutter runner team will help but also march a slave unit straight towards it. This will have the effect that he will probably direct more shooting at them rather than you units further back. Also if he flanks them with his combat units he will open himself up to be flanked by the rest of your army advancing behind the slaves. The storm vermin are a bit of a pts sink in under 2k, but if you want to use them, make them as effective as possible. Skaven win through combat res and the best thing going for the storm vermin is the 3+ save in combat (you should always give them shields) and their WS4 which reduces the hits the dark elves will do in combat against them (apart from his elites which are WS5). Then give them the swarm banner and have a BSB with the war banner with them. How you outnumber the enemy to get the swarm banner to work is either done by having a unit of 25+, or by insuring that you charge in with another unit as well if you may not outnumber the enemy. You start with a combat res of 8. A 7 wide unit of witch elves with a champion will throw out 22 attacks, 14.7 hits on average, 7.2 wounds on average, 2.4 failed saves on average. If you have your usual luck you will do no casulties, but probably have atleast one more rank than them and win by 2 or 3. Then he will lose frenzy and only do an average of 1.6 kills the following turn and lose by 3 or 4. I would also advise that you only have 1 or 2 expensive units in the army and fill the rest of the list with cheap stuff to ensure you outnumber him vasty in both number of units and models. By expensive I mean Storm vermin, plague monks with extra hand weapons, giants etc. Up your slave units to 25 and your clanrat units to 30 to help against panicing. If you use plague monks I find there are two alternatives. A combat res unit without extra hand weapons and just banner and musician. The other is a combat unit with a plague priest with flail and the banner of burning hatred. Extra hand weapons (even with the banner of burning hatred) is probably not worth it. In a small unit (eg. 20 strong) it's costing you 40 pts for 5 extra str 3 attacks (or 4 if the plague priest is in the first rank). The mantra of the skaven general should be that we win via combat res and running units down not by killing them. 40 pts is 20 slaves or 8 more clanrats, much more useful. An example 1500 pt army list (that hasn't gone for magic or an agressive plague monk unit) that should do well is below: Chieften - 51 Heavy armour, shield [personally I would pay extra to either have a plague priest with flail as the general, however the chieften is cheap and provides good leadership] Warlock Engineer - 110 2 Dispel Scrolls, Warp Blades [he can cast warp lightning on 2D6 every turn (less likely to kill himself, as he's really there to stop the enemy magic] Battle Standard Bearer - 95 War Banner [note I didn't even bother with armour, as he should never be at the front of a unit unless it is to extend the range of his break test reroll forwards] 30 Clanrats with Std & Mus - 165 26 Clanrats with Std & Mus - 145 26 Clanrats with Std & Mus - 145 25 Slaves - 50 25 Slaves - 50 25 Slaves - 50 24 Storm Vermin with Std & Mus - 251 Swarm Banner, Shields 6 Nightrunners (no equipment) - 30 [the solid core of the army, nighrunners to distract and divert any combat units. The general joins the big clanrat unit and the BSB joins the storm vermin] 20 Plague Monks with Std & Mus - 135 4 Gutter Runner Tunnelling Team (Poisoned weapons) - 68 4 Gutter Runner Tunnelling Team (Poisoned weapons) - 68 6 Plague Censer Bearers - 102 [the plague monks are purely static combat res and give access to the censer bearers, the gutter runners will go for the bolt throwers and suicide charges against the front of units to kill sorceresses (6 poisoned attacks should take 2 wounds). Finally the censer bearers are there for a distraction, he must get rid of them because they will shred any unit he has in combat if they charge (even knights will die to the fumes) and being skirmishers and tougness 4 they will absorb shooting that will allow your main blocks to reach the enemy] I'm a few pts over at 1515, but the army can easily be bought back to 1500 by losing either a gutter runner, a censer bearer, or a few plague monks. The list stands at 8 ranked units and 224 models, and should be quite resilient to his shooting and magic, have good leadership, higher unit sizes and 2 dispel scrolls. It confirms to the rule of only 2 point sinks (the storm vermin and the plague monks with censer bearers and keeps the rest cheap to vastly outnumber the enemy making flanking easier. You don't need to go this far down the horde route but hopefully this post has given you a few extra ideas. Let us know how you get on. Rathstar |
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| nightlord skizit | 16th December 2006 - 07:00 AM Post #23 |
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Eshin lapdog
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only thing i would swap with the above list is the warbanner onto the SV and banner of the swarm onto the BSB. cause if he starts to shoot ur SV u can move him to a larger unit just my thoughts cheers |
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the ninja rats are coming...silent death awaits.... painted: everything! haha! 3k of skaven painted! | |
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| AMP187 | 26th February 2008 - 04:09 AM Post #24 |
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Clanrat
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Wow, talk about a blast from the past. I was wandering through old topics I made and found this pile of self-QQ'age. I'm pleased to say that (with yalls and the folks at Dakka Dakka's tutelage) turned into a somewhat formidable Skaven general. In fact, since these posts I've gone on to win games atleast 3/4 times. It definitely took time and practice, but I now know how to control the intricacies of this army. The key things, looking back, that I've improved, is to implement more shooting and magic. I now run a Grey Seer and a Warlock Engineer w/ Storm Daemon in just about every game, and use two Ratling's and a Warpfire Thrower. The other big change, I think, came from better deployment. I now use a more checkermark pattern for my army, with slaves taking the first wave in order to redirect charges and absorb missle fire. I gotta' tell yall, after I shed my Skaven funk I went on to so thoroughly thrash the Dark Elves that the player has switched armies to Chaos. (Sure, he says it's 'cuz he started to find Dark Elves boring, but we all know the truth )If anyone who posted advice is still around to read this belated message, much thanks for helping me to appreciate this great Skaven-y army. |
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'08l Skaven Record 8-1-3 '08 Daemons Record 3-0-1 My Skaven Army Diary
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