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How to not lose...
Topic Started: 7th November 2006 - 06:31 AM (1,139 Views)
AMP187
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Clanrat
Hi, I've been playing Skaven for a couple months now and I'm currently 3-6-2 with them. That's right, I'm terrible, haha. I mainly play against Dark Elves, and I use a warlords clan list. My 1500 pt list goes something like this-

Chieftain - (Halberd, Shield, Heavy Armor)
Warlock Engineer - (Warp Blades, Upgraded Warp Energy Condenser)

20 Stormvermin (Musican, Umbranner, Shields)

25 Clanrats - (Spears, Standard, Musician)

25 Clanrats - (Standard, Musician, Ratling Gun)

25 Clanrats - (Standard, Musician)

20 Slaves

20 Slaves

20 Plague Monks - (Additioanal HW's, Umbranner, Musician)

1 Giant Rat Pack

6 Gutter Runners (Poison HW's)

Giant

I lose pretty badly every time, and I'm pretty sure my tactics are sound and I mostly set up right. I do have pretty bad luck when it comes to rolls, but I must say, I'm considering dropping Skaven for Orcs or Undead because I'm quite frustrated with their seemingly large amount of ineptitude. He usually shoots me a lot before I get to him and when I do get to him my Skaven don't seem to do well enough even with all their numbers to actually win. I also get chain-feared a lot, despite having my chieftain around to help with LD, usually ending up with multiple units running, most of which never rally. Pretty much everything goes to Hell by turn 3 and I'm gettting really frustrated, if anyone can give me any advice/strategy/tips it would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
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scrivener
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*toot*

If you have issues with ineptitude then orcs and zombies aren't for you. ;)

Ok, to the army list...

a giant and a stormvermin unit in 1,500 is a bit of a point suck. Invest them in numbers. If 25 clanrats a unit feels too little, try 30. Shooting a problem? That's what slaves are for, run them in front to absorb the shooting, and if they get annihilated it's not a problem, they are expendable. You're probably getting trouble from shooting because the giant, stormvermin and monks are all nice magnets. Warmachines a problem? Make your gutterrunner unit tunnellers, pop them up behind enemy lines. Keep your chieftain within radius of the units that will be likely to take Leadership tests, so he can lend them some of his. Your monks with frenzy can take on the fear-causers. Make sure your monks are always packing double handweapons, it's a must-have.

For better tactical help, check out these links here.

For help against dark elves, check out this one.

it seems like you have trouble against a shooty army, those that try to win by shooting everything before you can get to them. There are plenty of tips to fight them scattered around this forum, but bit of work with slave shields, a stormbanner, tunnellers to warmachine hunt, and numbers will easily demolish a shooty army.

Hope that helped!
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Blood Vixen
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All hail the Age of Skaven
and i see two umbranners if your going for this style you might just be better off with storm banner instead as it protects alot more than just one unbranner

if you choose not to take numbers ineptitude and numbers against adept and few numbers it doesnt matter how good they are theyll go down eventuly

as scrivvy said the stormvermin and giant are to much of a sink for this specially against someone like dark elves a unit of rat ogres will stand more of a chance than a giant as there not large targets

you might also want some giant rats to speed in frount of your lines its risky but that 30 point unit that got into combat is stopping a good 150-200 points of shooting
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Clanlord Trask
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Quiet, I'm plotting.

what kind of Dark Elf army do you usually face? Shooty? Cavlary?
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Bodacious
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I also lose a lot when it comes to skaven. Though that maybe more because of my lousy generalship than because of my army. I'm guessing here that for you it's more an army thing.

For your list: I'd recommed getting a few extra heroes and upping those clanrat units to around 30ish. This makes the clanrat units more likely to win in combat (thanks to the heroes) and makes them less vulnerable to shooting (they have more ranks). I don't think the giant rat pack is helping you much (it's only one pack) so you might as well drop it and allthough I never played with a giant, I'd recommend you to evaluate it's performance too and see if it needs replacement.

Also, Stormvermin and plaguemonks should IMO be 25 sized, especially if you're facing shooty opponents. Oh yeah, and you can't have 2 umbranners (you can only have one of each magic item, it's in the rules).

I also agree with basically everything Scrivener and Blood Vixen said before. Allthough I don't think you should ditch your stormvermin. You just need a bigger unit. (I like stormvermin and it would be a waste of model if you were to totally abandon a 20 piece unit).

Cheers,
Bodacious.

PS: Try to make one of your heroes a warlock engineer for the (I guess much needed) magic support and give him a scroll and a stormdeamon to really have him harrass your opponent.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

Just a quick question: you do have paid the points for standard bearers in your stormvermin and plague monk units, right? You need to buy a standard before you can get a magical banner.

As for tactics... your army really isn't all that bad. Lots of units. (which doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't field more. Extra slaves always help) You are light on the shooting, but that really shouldn't be a problem.

Could you elaborate on how and why you lose? Do your troops panic from shooting? I'd be surprised, not only do you have leadership 9 within range of the general and monks that are immune to psychology, the Elves shouldn't have enough firepower to cause more than one or two panic tests before you get in charge range. Still, if this is what's happening you can always take the easy way out and bring the stormbanner. A few small units of nightrunners would also relieve the pressure on your gutter runners and help taking out or distracting enemy warmachines and skirmishers.

Costs a lot of points, but less than your opponent's now-useless missile troops do.
Is it their magic that mauls your units? If so, bringing a dispel scroll along would be good. (In fact, do this anyway. The stormdaemon would also be nice.)

Or is it that you rush at the enemy shooting full speed only to get killed in combat? I'm guessing this is the problem, because only breaking from combat would cause the widespread panic you describe. Normal panic tests don't cause other units than the one affected to flee if you haven't deployed all your troops in a single column or something.

If you're getting beaten in combat, it would probably be your tactics that are at fault. The army really isn't bad, and Dark Elves are fairly nasty in combat but by no means unbeatable. Are you getting flanked? Is he able to have several of his units team up on one of yours? Is there a killer unit of elite troops with powerful characters just cutting through your ranks? Any and all of these things can be dealt with, because you should outnumber his forces by a considerable amount. Especially as you've indicated he has lots of shooting, he really shouldn't be able to have many combat units, and especially not many ranked combat units. A small block of corsairs or spearmen without full rank bonus will not be able to defeat your monks, stormvermin or clanrats in a head-on assault barring atrocious dice or horrendous casualties from missile fire. I strongly doubt the Elves can field more than one or two units capable of engaging you on a level playing field.

Not being sure what exactly is going wrong, I can't tell much beyond generalities. Keep your units together. Mutual support is where it's at, for warhammer in general and Skaven in particular. (for Dark Elves in particular also.) Try to predict what combats will happen, and where they will happen. Try to develop a gut feeling for which fights you can and cannot win. (and until then, try to run quick calculations in your head. e.g. those Dark Elf spearmen are marginally better than my clanrats, but they're only strength 3 and I get a 4+ save, so they'll never overcome the 2 extra ranks and my outnumbering bonus.) Most importantly, try to fight in such a way that your good units are in a position to take on his mediocre ones, and that several of your clanrat, slave and giant rat units can gang up on his best. Dark Elves really can't stand up to flanking.

All in all, Skaven versus Dark Elves is interesting. We're both tactical armies, relying on high speed and initiative to overcome brute force. The Elves have better discipline, combat skills and even higher initiative than we, but we have many, many more troops point for point. I'll always bet on numbers to beat the elite few, but against a fast army like this you do need to be very very careful not to get outmanoeuvred.

Oh, and one more bit of general advice: use what shooting and magic you have to target his best combat unit. Don't try to get in a missile duel. Rather, if a big warplightning or two has mauled an elite toughness 3 combat unit, you'll win the ensuing close combat and then are at leisure to finish of his shooting up close. Fast cavalry is an even higher targetting priority though. I'm betting he has quite some dark riders with him... do not let these at your flank. Ever.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Go forth now, and enforce the will of the Horned Rat and show the misguided weakling Elves who is the true master of this world!
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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AMP187
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Clanrat
Well I'll go over what generally spells doom for my skavenous hordes. I do generally have pretty atrocious dice rolling but there are some other things. His sorceress usually rolls a 6 and gets Black Horror somehow, which is pretty much the dirtiest spell he has against skaven, last game that sorceress caused 2 units of clanrats and a unit of slave to rout by herself. then his witch elves tear me up pretty bad, i usually try to warp lightning them but i either dont make the casting roll/get dispelled/or blow myself up. Despite numerous things said about him, my giant suprisingly does well, I generally use him to guard a flank against incoming dark riders/other fast stuff and he can generally smosh 'em pretty good. He fields two reaper bolt throwers and usually around 20 crossbowmen that he perches on a hill making my slave screens useless and causing any ratling guns/gutter runners to be sniped pretty easy. When i finally do reach him I usually have already had one or two units rout despite rank bonuses and myh chieftain being near due to shooting from reapers/crossbowmen/dark riders/sorceress. That's when he charges me with lots of stuff, because he hangs his CC units back while I'm forced to advance to meet him and then he can pretty much get the charge at his leisure. Then im generally beaten in CC pretty easily, sometimes flanked by chariots/dark riders. And I chain-break a lot due to lots of my units being near. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to counter these but it never goes to plan haha, I think I'm going to make it a habit to get a dispel scroll so I can use it against any really dangerous spells coming my way, and I'll alsoo prolly upgrade my gutter runners to tunneling teams despite making them realy expensive.

Also, I pretty much took the giant rats because I had 30 points left over and not really anything to with em :)
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scrivener
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*toot*

Use giantrats as flankers, send them up to cover the flank to give him something to deal with. If you allow him free reign over one flank he will dominate with outmanouvering you with his chariots and cavalry. Keep your units close but not in a knot. Spread your units out a little, too cramped together and you cannot manouvre effectively. Skaven tactics require space and manouverability to bring their superior numbers to bear: you won't have the angles to charge an enemy unit in the front and sides if your units are stuck together in a large block. Also get a feel for distances. Overall it sounds to me like he's mostly getting to choose his fights, he is outmanouvering you and getting your blocks jammed and stepping on each other's toes. And when units are trapped close to each other and locked in CC from all sides, breaking and fleeing can have a domino effect all the way through. It seems to be a fairly standard shoot/flank with fast units/CC tactic that you're falling prey to. If he tries the same tactics often enough, use the opportunity to anticipate his moves and counter them, take out the biggest threats with magic and shooting, protect your flanks, and target your strong units at the weakest links in his army.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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AMP187
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Hmmm yea, that sounds about right for what happens, scrivener. Do you have any tips that could help on deployment and stuff? I did use giant rats as a flanker last game and it worked pretty well, keeeping a unit of Witch Elves out of the game for pretty much the whole thing. But yea I definitely had my units steppin all over each other, and the only time I really dominated CC was when I had a unit of plague monks and my stormvermin on one of his warrior squads. I guess I'll haev to take placing my units into careful consideration next game as me flanking him could be a key to winning.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Hmm. Apart from the obvious advice to get some more magic defence... (a dispel scroll or two would go a long way towards keeping your army together) how come there's always a hill for him to put all his bolt throwers and crossbows on? Just deploying the terrain according to what one player wants will lead to one-sided battles. Terrain is an important factor in any battle, and should not favour either side. I advocate randomised placement.

As for actual tactics, scrivener is right. Just because he's shooting you doesn't mean you should rush forward into a deathtrap. If you're getting flanked, you're doing badly. Do you ever use charge reaction flee? It's the best option if a fight is coming up you can't win. Do think a turn or two in advance? Warhammer is much like chess where the movement phase is concerned. Place your units so that even if one of your blocks gets routed you'll have another unit ready to flank-charge the victors. Do you make sure your expendable stuff is up front? I always keep my clanrats in the second line. That way, they're much less vulnerable and there are all sorts of options to entrap the enemy. You should have many more and much bigger units than the enemy does. You should be able to pick fights as well as he can.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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Sebrent
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AMP187
Nov 7 2006, 08:28 PM
I guess I'll haev to take placing my units into careful consideration next game as me flanking him could be a key to winning.

You bet your tail that is the key to winning! Especially as Skaven!

You should probably look at army composition a bit. If you don't outnumber a Dark Elf army at least two-to-one, then you have gone a bit heavy on "elite" units (Skaven units aren't really elite). Flanking should be no problem in a properly constructed Skaven army as you have no doubt heard of Skaven armies that straight from one side of the board to the other (I don't recommend that deployment unless your opponent deploys wide and isn't faster than you). By outnumbering your opponent, you should be able to "match up" at least two units for each unit he has. You merely, as already stated, have to learn how to keep your units from "getting in each others' way." With two units per each one your opponent has, you can always outmaneuver him as you threaten him with one unit while the other moves to flank him. One way of doing that is to have a unit in front of him, just outside of charge range, while the other is a bit to the side and moving to angle a charge for a side flank. With these angles, when he lines up to your charge, his side will be facing one of the units, no matter which one it is. Just make sure you account for his other units that you should have two other units "matched up" on. Skaven are all about flanks. We protect our own while literally swarming out enemies.

Shooting should almost never be a problem for Skaven as we have slaves. They are 2pts and expendable, so use them to screen your troops from missile fire. Against someone who takes 2 repeater bolt throwers, I'd recommend dropping the giant. They are pincushions to RBTs. For his magic, Black Horror should not be hitting 3+ units. First, you should have your units more spread out. It is a 5" radius, but that means maybe 2 units, nothing more. You should already be spread out to keep your units from "stepping on each others' toes." Second, it is a relatively short range and high difficulty to cast. Skaven are highly mobile and with the use of 1-2 dispel scrolls, your opponent should NEVER get that spell off. Not to mention he most likely won't be automatically rolling that spell every game (if you've read the rules, you should know about generating spells.). Since it's a 1,500 pt game, he can only use level 2 sorceresses, so there should not be much of a problem with him casting it more than once ... the probability of that is rather low (generating the spell for both casters, both being in range to cast the spell, both successfully casting the spell).
----Skaven Mathhammer
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AMP187
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Ah, let me clear that up, Black Horror wasn't hitting 3+ units, it his 3 different units at 3 different times. And yea I don't just automaticaly give him a hill, we have one hill and i put it down on one side. Then we roll to see who gets what side and I always lose, because of aforementioned atrocious rolling :)
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Chieftain Cazgar
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if you get to deploy the hill then don't put it in a DZ, sure you may like it, but he needs it more, and if you put it in a DZ then thats a 50/50 chance he gets it. however, stick it in the middle of the feild/5" to 10" out from one DZ and it will mean his RBTs can't hit anywhere they like. terrain is as important as the units you take if you ask me.

i know you've said you like the giant, but i have to say in a small game like that i wouldn't bother. with all the points spared you can get yourself some more giant rats, 3 in a pack to make a unit with 3 ranks, thats enough to get a RBTs attention. then with points left over get a BSB with storm banner. and then, if theres still points left over upgrade the gutter runners to tunnelers.

this way, you have your storm banner hold off missile fire for a turn or 2. giving your tunnellers time to pop up and your giant rats time to wiz across the feild and charge and beat an RBT. skaven have very good fast units, take advantage of them at all costs. once the RBTs are delt with take out the mage with the emerged tunnel runners.

and whilst the back of his line runs amok the rest of your army advnaces behind cover of slaves.


key thing is don't give away that hill, terrain is an important advantage, don't just give it away
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AMP187
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hmmmm, haha he's gonna give me crap if i dont atleast put it in a deployment zone, i'll have to figure something out. would rat ogres be a better choice than the giant? the giant is really fun, but id consider swapping him for rat ogres. BTW the next match is gonna be a 2000 pointer so i was thinking of taking my grey seer, does anyone have any tips for what to field in a 2000 point game?
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Underlord Burrows
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randomise your terrain placement like your meant too. as already stated above terrian is like an extention of your army. it can make or break battle for you just like it has done for hundreds of years in real world history. it is deadly important and is not meant to be unfairly given away unblanacing the game just like cheating just because so and so will complain as he always expects there to be one does not make it right. the exact opposite infact.



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