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Fell Blade vs VC Black Coach
Topic Started: 23rd December 2005 - 12:13 AM (767 Views)
Antherak_173
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Evil Overlord
As for fellblade vs black coaches, they are made for it.

Last year, at thr RTT i dared try eshin with, i played a cheating dumbass guy that played sylvania list. Had a vamp lord on dragon with 150pts magical items (and a thrall with arcane items, but i wont discuss that here) and 2 black coaches.

Lets just say on turn 1 he lost a coach, and i overran in the 2nd one, which he also lost. The dragon would have been next, making the vamp kill my MA but leaving his lord on foot and easy prey, but lets just say he encountered a banshee that did him an incredible 6 wounds.

So, yes it kills them, if he fails is ward save.
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Malignus Rodenticus
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Wow! I am going to be so hated at the RTT next month. Hell, I might go for two triads just to make things real nasty (try 10 Assassins).


MR
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Warlord Kamatz
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So far as I know, the only option to take 2 Black Coaches, is to play the Storm of Chaos list Sylvania. So the Vampire must have been of the Von Carstein Bloodline. If a Thrall may take arcane items, his bloodline has to be the Necrarchs.
So his list was very illegal.

Kamatz
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Malignus Rodenticus
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After thinking about it, I think this weapon might not be so wise. It is basically a character/chariot/warmachine/daemon/monster killer. It is not a unit killer.

It does Str 10 D6 wounds hits. BUt d6 wounds is not d6 attacks (as some people may be led to beleive). THus a master assassin witll have 5 attackes with this weapon, and only five attacks. If he charges a unit of chaos warriors and hits with each swing, he hits five guys. Since they get no save (do to the -7 to thier save from the Str 10 weapon) and have only one wound, they die. No need to role for wounds.

The weapon works great against multiple wound units. THats because after you hit and after they fail thier save (including ward saves), then you role for wounds. So, if you hit a 3W character with a 4+ ward save and he fails his save, you role to see how many wounds he suffers. You do not role to see how many wounds a model suffers and then have him save each one.


That being said, if you are facing a unit heavy army, your best bet might be not to take it as most units of rank and file have only one wound. Therefore teh fellblade is a waste of a weapon.


MR
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Antherak_173
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Since they get no save (do to the -7 to thier save from the Str 10 weapon)

It's even dumber than that. -7 wasn't enough with alessio. Since it already removed all saves from any kind of possible armor combo (except for a -2 save saurus lord that still gets a 6), he made us pay more because the weapon ALLOWS no armor saves. He could have least have made each wound saved by ward individually or something. Ward saves really kills the fellblade.

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If he charges a unit of chaos warriors

If you really do this, you have no idea how to play eshin at all.
You NEVER EVER charges chaos wariiors with anything in eshin, Not even with swarms (as the swarms will only give him points. What you do is stick the swarms to the warriors like flies on s**t, and remove his march moves, so he do nothing with big expansive unit while you attack move easy targets, like that very costy chaos chosen knights units in the flank and kill them all. :P





@Malignus:


With eshin, you DON'T kill units. You can't very reliably do so. As you said, the fellblade kills only juicy targets, and it is EXACTLY what you want to do with eshin.
You hit characters, flank of multi-wound units like dragon ogres, rat ogres, flank of cavalry, even swarms !

The only way to really do damage to light infantry units is to dual flank charge them with good gutter runner units, and charge with MA and triad as well. Goal being to overwhelm him with the sheer numer of poisoned attacks made. And even then, you must be watchful what you charge, as to when you win, depending if you must/restrain pursuit, will that put some of your units in trouble and make them easy prey next.

To win, you must use guerilla tactics, and must use darkness well.

In the example i gave above with sylvania, the goal was simple. You kill both black coaches, you kill dragon and swarm vampire lord to disintegrate him with CR and finally, you kill both banshees with eshin wizards. After that, what you must do is simply evade his army all game long. You'll have made a bunch of points, he'll have made none, you win.

Once, i played against a pestilens appendix list with my eshin. All i did was kill is 4 rat ogres in turn 1, and then kill his 5 bases of poison rat swarms. Just with that, it was game over for him. All i did was using my 2 5-rat night runner units to lure away his plague monks and he never had a chance.

With eshin, it's about knowing what you must kill when you take a look at his army and how not to get killed back. And for that, the fellblade is an invaluable tool. The other option is to opt for the bands of power/weeping blade combo, but a good player will let you skitterleap in first, and then dispel BoP, and with only St5, most decent characters can still have a really good save with only a -2.
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Malignus Rodenticus
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What do you do if your opponent puts said juicy character in a big unit, especially something very good, like Bretonian Knights or Chaos Knights?


MR
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Antherak_173
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In chaos knights: You skitterleap in the knights and challenge his character. (making sure you touch character and 1 knight, NOT chamipon) He can't refuse, you rack up many, many points from extra fellblade wounds (lord = maximum of 3+5 = 8) They loose by 6, 3D6 vs 3D6, you should stand a good chance at killing them.

Bretonian knights are trickier, due to the mass of special rules they have. It can be done like before, but they'll loose by less points, so are less likely to flee because of ranks. And you don't challenge vs bretonians, because character can hide, denying you of your +100vp assassination bonus. You just kill him normaly, do you 2-3 points, probably loose and if you'r unlucky, you flee. But they'll never catch you because they have 50% chances of not pursuing because of smoke bombs, and even if so, it's 3D6 vs 3D6+1. So, you have a very great chance of fleeing and living.

But, bear in mind that your MA will not often lives through an entire game and meet his doom sometime. That is why you have to get the most juicy and easily killable targets before he dies, as well as to compensate for the massive amount of points you'll give him. (generally, that is the only points my opponent get) But killing the general almost always give back the points your MA gives (+100 general, +100 assassination, +poitns of character often > MA)

Watch deployment of opponent, and look where you could skitterleap and kill 2 birds with 1 stone, meaning, try to do the most with the least skitterleaps, by placing your MA in a position such as he can overrun in another juicy target and kill another thing in HIS turn. Maximizing this guy and the warpstone stars carrying assassin is what makes you win with eshin. Well, it has always worked for me.
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Xh!n Tarat
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(Mostly) Overatted.

My own experience - and it has been mainly in a tournament setting - is that if used intelligently, a Fellblade armed Sensei is a dream come true for an unarmoured skirmishing force such as Eshin.

And intelligently does mean not throwing him unsupported against rank and file, but always hunting multi-wound nastiness in its many and varied and deliciously omnipresent forms.

Unlike Comrat Antherak, I relish the chance for mine to be challenged by a mere unit Champion, as the overkill almost inevitably results in an entire unit being beaten (and as often as not, then run down), by one unarmoured Skaven in his pyjamas! Mind you, War or Griffon Banners can make the best laid plans of mice and ... well, other mice ... fall apart quicker than an Elf in a blender, but that's the beauty of Warhammer.

Just my 2 warp-tokens' worth .............


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Malignus Rodenticus
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Antherak_173
Jan 2 2006, 04:10 PM
In chaos knights: You skitterleap in the knights and challenge his character. (making sure you touch character and 1 knight, NOT chamipon)

But he can accept with any champion in the unit regardless of whether he is touching. If I am wrong, please tell em where in the rules to refer to.


Also, MA runs 3d6+1? Where does the +1 come from.

Finally, what do you mean by brentonians hiding? I thought they had to accept challenges.

As for skitterleap. I was planning on takin one eshin sorcerer (level 2, for the increased chance of skitterleap), two assassins, and one MA. Should I take two sorecers and only one Assassin. Should I give one assassin/sorcerer a brass orb?

MR
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Antherak_173
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Unlike Comrat Antherak


I'm not a lowly comrat. I'm a generat ! :lol:


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I relish the chance for mine to be challenged by a mere unit Champion, as the overkill almost inevitably results in an entire unit being beaten


I have both tournament and normal games experiences. Most opponents won't challenge the MA, and if you do, they refuse.

Also, even with challenge, the chance to beat a unit alone is quite slim. Even if you do the 6 max CR from wounds, opponent normaly only loose by 1, and even skavens stand a good chance of not breaking with those odds. If he stays, you haven't any other sources of points, and you loose and flee.


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But he can accept with any champion in the unit regardless of whether he is touching. If I am wrong, please tell em where in the rules to refer to.


A model can only accept/refuse challenge if said model is in base to base contact with an enemy model. If you don't touch, he can't challenge, even if the rest of the unit touch.

BRB p. 99, issuing a challenge.

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Also, MA runs 3d6+1? Where does the +1 come from.


Well, duh, you dissapoint me, Malignus :P He who runs away, lives to fight another day, maybe ? :lol: The good ol' skaven rule that tells that all skaven units have a +1 on flee rolls !

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Finally, what do you mean by brentonians hiding? I thought they had to accept challenges.


Don't know about that one. Didn't fight many times against them and never challenged.

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As for skitterleap. I was planning on takin one eshin sorcerer (level 2, for the increased chance of skitterleap), two assassins, and one MA. Should I take two sorecers and only one Assassin. Should I give one assassin/sorcerer a brass orb?


In my experiences, brass orb is a waste. It is far to random to reliably hit something worthwhile. Usually, the best character setup i found was master Assassin with fellblade and talisrat of protection, assassin with warpstone stars, 2 Lv2 eshin sorcerats with 2x dispel scrolls and 1x warpscroll. That way, you have 2x skitterleap with 3 dices each, harder to dispel than 2 dice ones.

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SneekyGit
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what do you mean by brentonians hiding? I thought they had to accept challenges.


They dont have to, but if they dont they lose their blessing :lol:

there is a magic item "gauntlet of the duel" that forces You to accept

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Malignus Rodenticus
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I can't believe I forgot the +1 rule. Arrggghhhhh!

O.K. here is my proposed list for this weekends tourney:

MA w/ Fellblade
Assassin w/ warpstone stars
1 level 2 Sorcerer w/ powerstone and dispell scroll (though I could make it 2 dispells and no power stone).

CORE
4 units of 20 nightrunners w/ throwing stars and 2nd hand weapons + champion
1 Unit of 4 rat swarms

SPECIAL
2 Units of 5 tunneling teams w/ poisoned hand weapons + poisoned throwqing stars + black skaven

RARE
Triad

This comes to 1999 points.
In teh aletrnative, I can lose 1 unit of nightrunners for another assassin w/ weeping blades. OR Champion w/ storm banner (this coupled w/ cover of darkness would really be cool) or Second Sorcerer + 2 more gutter runners (1 for each unit).

What do you think.

MR

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Antherak_173
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Drop a night runner unit and add a 2nd sorcerer.

Separate night runners in units of 10. Way more manoeuverable, less likely to be charged, easier to hide.

No champs in night runners.

Drop the chp and stars in tunel team. When they emerge, you mostly want them in combat, so stars arent worth it, and lets face it 5 shots aint good.

For the left over, try to get a normal 9 rat gutter units or take some globadiers (10)
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Good advice from Antherak. I'd decrease the nightrunners even further in size... I use units 5-8 strong for the annoying hornet swarm style army.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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Malignus Rodenticus
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Antherak_173
Jan 3 2006, 11:25 PM


Drop the chp and stars in tunel team. When they emerge, you mostly want them in combat, so stars arent worth it, and lets face it 5 shots aint good.

For the left over, try to get a normal 9 rat gutter units or take some globadiers (10)

Whats a CHP

whats a rat gutter unit ( I am ssuming its a gutter runnet unit). When you say regulat, you mean non tunneling. I also assume that both teh tunneling teams and the rat gutters should have black skaven.


MR
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