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Skitterleaping; And WLCs.
Topic Started: 2nd December 2005 - 02:02 AM (436 Views)
Jackety
FEAR THE LEMMING!
Well, thankfully I haven't come across the problem yet, but what happens if you skitterleap into contact with a WLC? It's treated as a overrun/pursuit move, so technically the WLC can't flee, but it's rules state that it always must.

Any solutions/ideas?
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Mutator
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Retired fat dude

The WLC has a trump rule: it always flees.

Why? Because there are no combat stats for the warmachine - it is never, ever supposed to get into contact.

Why dont you just destroy it by teleporting into base contact then? Because the precedent set by it's own rules on pursuit/overrun tell us that it always flees even when nothing else is allowed to. It even kills a kitten explaining how :)
Mostly harmless
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shlominus
Stormvermin
i donīt want to start another discussion, mutator, but again i feel that you can view the situation differently. :unsure:

the eshin skitterleap allows you to move into contact with nonfleeing enemies. why this restriction, when you can charge fleeing units with other movement spells?

in my mind, this restriction is there exactly to prevent the kind of situation that would arise when you play it like you suppose. you would leap into contact, chasing the wlc away. actually i donīt know why they resticted the spell in this way, but for some reason this was not wanted.

as is often the case, when 2 special rules collide (as with skitterleaping vs. skirmishers), the rules are not 100% clear.

you could rule that the wlc is not a valid target for skitterleaping as it must always flee when being overrun into, which means it behaves like an already fleeing enemy. that would mean itīs an illegal target for skitterleaping.

fleeing enemies are (for reasons unknown) safe from skitterleaping, the same could count for the wlc, which behaves exactly like fleeing enmies when it comes to charging/overrunning.
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farsight
The Happy Buddist
well too be totally honest they're is a slim chance your opponent will be skaven anyway and slimmer agin they will be crazy enough to acctually take a WLC.

Still when a skitterleap goes into a warp lightning cannon it should flee away with the assasin staying where it appears, this is because it says that the controller of the WLC can use the Warpstone to project a field around it for a ward save and also see a few seconds into the future, thus allowing it to leg it when charged, so yeah it would sense the assasin about to go puff and flee while the assasin stays they're, dazzled by what happened ^_^

also when playing against warp lightning cannons the best way to deal with them is to charge them on the first turn, now i know this is a bit of a scam and if i saw it done i would just point blank say "get out" but it can be done, so as before first turn charge a WLC with anything and it has to flee, regardless of the distance etc. Dev

Dan
"Challenge stroung Clan Moulder dead- thing? Accept your challenge i do"
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Warlord Gnashik
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farsight
Dec 4 2005, 02:40 PM
also when playing against warp lightning cannons the best way to deal with them is to charge them on the first turn, now i know this is a bit of a scam and if i saw it done i would just point blank say "get out" but it can be done, so as before first turn charge a WLC with anything and it has to flee, regardless of the distance etc.


You can only legally declare a charge if it is reasonable that the charging unit could move far enough to reach the target. So that rules out that cheesy tactic of having a M4 unit declare a charge on a WLC some 24" away and expecting it to flee off the board on the first turn.

Quote:
 
what happens if you skitterleap into contact with a WLC? It's treated as a overrun/pursuit move, so technically the WLC can't flee


The WLC rules clearly stat that it always flees, even when pusued/overran into. I would agree that the WLC flees and the Eshin-rat is left where he 'ported to.[/color]

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Deathmaster Mik
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Claw of the Shadow

farsight
 
also when playing against warp lightning cannons the best way to deal with them is to charge them on the first turn, now i know this is a bit of a scam and if i saw it done i would just point blank say "get out" but it can be done, so as before first turn charge a WLC with anything and it has to flee, regardless of the distance etc.
What Warlord Gnashik said before me is totally right. The rules say you can't declare charge if you're not relatively confident to reach the target. Just liked to add the page number in the Big Red Book; page 265.

Jackety
 
what happens if you skitterleap into contact with a WLC? It's treated as a overrun/pursuit move, so technically the WLC can't flee, but it's rules state that it always must.

Any solutions/ideas?
Sorry guys. All wrong.

The WLC can't flee from this attack since it's not allowed a flee reaction at all. So the special WLC rule isn't in effect.

When the WLC somehow does get involved in close combat (by magical means, like the Eshin skitterleap), the WLC is auto-destroyed. (see the chronicles from 2004, page 117)

And yes, I think the character destroying the WLC (in 1st round of Close Combat) get to Overrun as normal. The Eshin Skitterleap is treated as a pursuit move for reaction purposes (meaning the target can only 'hold'), but is a regular charge in every other sense. So placing your character in the right place can give you a bonus charge (overrun) if you're skitterleaping to a unit thats auto-destroyed or easily offed in the 1st round of Hand to hand.

Hope this clears things up. I'll clean/add this threat to eshin rules section and add a link when the dust settles.

Mik :ph43r:
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shlominus
Stormvermin
Quote:
 
The WLC can't flee from this attack since it's not allowed a flee reaction at all.


um, but it IS allowed to flee from overruns. itīs an exception, written down in the wlc-special rules (havenīt got them with me atm, but iīm pretty sure). thatīs the problem i have with the former explanations. while the spell doesnīt allow the target to flee, the wlc always has to flee.

you might be right when you say itīs automatically destroyed. that sounds more likely than it being chased away.

i still think it might be illegal to target it, like i wrote before. there has to be a reason they didnīt allow the eshin skitterleap to target fleeing enemies. but to be honest, i lean a bit toward the "destroyed" explanation now.
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farsight
The Happy Buddist
Warlord Gnashik: too be honets with you i was only joking anyway, still gues i will have to charge it on the second turn, letting the opponent know that i am not very good at estimating charges ^_^ , course i wouldn't do that, or would i :ph43r:

still if a assasin jumps out on two slaves and a gunner no matter what they are on they are going to die, so it does in a way make sense, still that's why you dont take a WLC :P

Dan
"Challenge stroung Clan Moulder dead- thing? Accept your challenge i do"
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Deathmaster Mik
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shlominus
Dec 5 2005, 02:52 PM
Quote:
 
The WLC can't flee from this attack since it's not allowed a flee reaction at all.


um, but it IS allowed to flee from overruns. itīs an exception, written down in the wlc-special rules (havenīt got them with me atm, but iīm pretty sure). thatīs the problem i have with the former explanations. while the spell doesnīt allow the target to flee, the wlc always has to flee.
Be that as it may... but there is one big difference.. and I think thats the main reason why the WLC is destroyed.

The difference is that this particular 'pursuit' starts in base contact with the WLC. There is no 'my unit overruns from A into B' (B being the WLC's base) like with the regular pursuit. In this case A = B... so wherever the WLC would flee to..it would still be the location where the character would appear.
The Eshin skitterleap doesn't need the battlefield to pinpoint a location, like the regular skitterleap. The Eshin variant allows you to pinpoint a non-fixed place in time; the models base (note the diff between 'place into base contact' & ' (re)appear anywhere on the battlefield). There is no escape for the WLC, cause no matter how much or how hard they flee, their base (the starting and ending point of the 'pursuit') moves along with it... It's like trying to run from your own shadow in a sense.

See what I mean? I can't explain it clearer..I think.

Quote:
 
you might be right when you say itīs automatically destroyed. that sounds more likely than it being chased away.

i still think it might be illegal to target it, like i wrote before. there has to be a reason they didnīt allow the eshin skitterleap to target fleeing enemies. but to be honest, i lean a bit toward the "destroyed" explanation now.
Uhhm. It's not me who made that up. It's GW. I didn't write the chronicles you know (You can tell, I would have done a better job :P) So in this case, there is no 'might'. It's a rule. I'm merely trying to explain why they made it this way. I this case the WLC is auto-destroyed. Period. End of story. :)

And ofcourse there's a reason it can't target fleeing units. That'd be plain cheesy.
The WLC - Eshin skitterleap trick, is just a case of paper-rock-scissors.
Non-magical weapons can't hurt ethereal beings. WLC can't beat Eshin Skitterleap. Makes sense to me. *shrugs*

:ph43r:
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shlominus
Stormvermin
Quote:
 
See what I mean? I can't explain it clearer..I think.


itīs still a bit woozy. :D

anywhy, i think you are right.

but the maneuver is as cheesy as skitterleaping into any fleeing enemy would be, cause the result is the same. ;)

ps:
Quote:
 
... so wherever the WLC would flee to..it would still be the location where the character would appear.


what if the wlc fled off the table? following your explanation, the assassin would follow, right? would this be involuntary, therefore removing the assassin from the game permanently? just wondering. :rolleyes: :P
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Mutator
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Retired fat dude

My FluffFu is stronger than yours, Mik:

The engineer has limited visions of the future imbued by the warpfield of the cannon: he knows where the assassin is gong to skitterleap to, and ensures that the cannon flees from that spot.

Your reference of 'place into base contact' vs 'anywhere on the battlefield' isnt a descriptor of how you select the location: it is the exception which means you are not forbidden to approach within 1" of enemy models.

Skitterleap still works like skitterleap, so you still have to pick a location. You dont pick a model's base, you pick a location in contact with a models base. In otherwords, a table location which happens to be right next to an enemy model. I contend (without much conviction, admittedly) that the WLC will cease to remain adjacent to that space as soon as it has been chosen - and you dont get to rechoose your location.
Mostly harmless
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Deathmaster Mik
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Mutator
Dec 5 2005, 10:43 PM
The engineer has limited visions of the future imbued by the warpfield of the cannon: he knows where the assassin is gong to skitterleap to, and ensures that the cannon flees from that spot.
BS.
Heck.. why even fire when the Engineer knows he's going to missfire.. or shoot a power 2 a few inches away while aiming at something 20 inch off... eh? Why even try to run for it when he knows he's not going to outrun his enemy??

The whole 'the engineer percieves the attack' is about enemies moving in by regular means. A 'catch all' versus charging/moving troops. Nothing more. You make too much of the story conjured up to make a rule appear 'in character', I think. Apperantly the rule is not a 'catch all'

Personally, I like the 'A = B' instead of 'A to B' "pursuit" aproach. It's kinda hard to percieve the attack route from that, cause there isn't one. BAMF..here I am.

Quote:
 
Your reference of 'place into base contact' vs 'anywhere on the battlefield' isnt a descriptor of how you select the location: it is the exception which means you are not forbidden to approach within 1" of enemy models.
The 1" thing is to prevent intentional 'accidental' charges. GW could have said "anywhere on the table, except touching fleeing units" for the Eshin version if they wanted to refer to the table. Instead, they said 'in base contact'.

Quote:
 
Skitterleap still works like skitterleap, so you still have to pick a location.   You dont pick a model's base, you pick a location in contact with a models base.   In otherwords, a table location which happens to be right next to an enemy model.
Wrong. You do pick a models base.
Bottom line is:"can.even.be.placed.in.base.contact" ..is just that; base contact. That spot is based on the model, not it's suroundings.

A WLC in base contact with an enemy unit = dead WLC.
GW say the WLC is a goner.. so it is.

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My FluffFu is stronger than yours, Mik:
Your wha..? :huh:
I think I'm glad yours is stronger. Heck.. looking at that name.. I hope I lack it. :P

Hehehe. It has a nice ring to it.
*makes mental note*

Mik :ph43r:
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shlominus
Stormvermin
the last 2 posts made me believe even more that it should not be allowed to target a wlc, because the outcome would be exactly like targeting a fleeing enemy, which is not allowed.

skitterleaping into fleeing enemies = not allowed
skitterleaping into something behaving exactly like fleeing enemies when overrun into = allowed

why?

not allowing it removes the problem, while not unbalancing anything.

the spell does not provide any guidelines for the situation of the assassin appearing somewhere and chasing his target away, because thatīs not allowed in the first place.

if you say the wlc runs off and the assassin stays at the spot he aimed at, you are simply creating a ruling by yourself. this is in no way covered by the rules. you might just as well say that the wlc is destroyed (which is at least hinted at by the chronicles). both are equally valid solutions.
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scrivener
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*toot*

While i think mutator's interpretation is more accurate in terms of the eshin skitterleap being like the basic skitterleap only without the 1" prohibition, i think it creates a very awkward scenario with the skitterleaper ending up on his own with the WLC fleeing away.

The WLC always has to flee coz it is not built for CC, it doesn't have the stats. However, the must-flee seems to be intended for standard situations, not an utter absolute: this is a magic-induced situation, i don't think the WLC "must flee" rules can force a flee reaction in this situation. I'd go with the chronicles and auto-destroyed.
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Mutator
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Retired fat dude

Deathmaster Mik
Dec 6 2005, 09:16 AM
BS.

Argue the fluff all you like, it is official fluff. Argue with Alessio ;)
Deathmaster Mik
 
I
Dec 5 2005, 10:43 PM
Skitterleap still works like skitterleap, so you still have to pick a location.   You dont pick a model's base, you pick a location in contact with a models base.   In otherwords, a table location which happens to be right next to an enemy model.
Wrong. You do pick a models base.
Bottom line is:"can.even.be.placed.in.base.contact" ..is just that; base contact. That spot is based on the model, not it's suroundings.


No Mik. You must pick a table location, not a model's base. As a brief example, think what happens when you skitterleap into an ungor who forms part of a mixed beastherd. I think you'll find he no longer stays in contact with the Ungor, but he remains in the same table location. Table location is the target. You are just allowed to choose a spot which puts the assassin in base contact with an enemy model.

Scrivener
 
While i think mutator's interpretation is more accurate in terms of the eshin skitterleap being like the basic skitterleap only without the 1" prohibition, i think it creates a very awkward scenario with the skitterleaper ending up on his own with the WLC fleeing away.

The WLC always has to flee coz it is not built for CC, it doesn't have the stats. However, the must-flee seems to be intended for standard situations, not an utter absolute: this is a magic-induced situation, i don't think the WLC "must flee" rules can force a flee reaction in this situation. I'd go with the chronicles and auto-destroyed.


I can accept that interpretation, but I prefer the other one. I dont find that suddenly abandoned assassin at all awkward - he's caused the WLC to flee, and he gets to choose his location to determine the fleeing direction accordingly. I feel that is appropriate. If you removed the cannon he'd still be standing there by himself.

I'm happy to concede that the when the WLC rules were written they had covered every known situation which might result in the WLC reaching base contact with enemy models, and that eshin-skitterleap, like the slaanesh spells which makes them unbreakable or frenzied, came after. However, I think there is sufficient grounds to argue that the WLC will flee from anything, even that which does not normally allow time for a flee reaction (such as skitterleap, PiFE etc), unless the WLC currently suffers from some form of complusion which forbids them from fleeing (the slaanesh unbreakable/frenzy spells). However, I can also see that just removing the WLC from the table is an elegant and viable solution to the problem. Both almost inevitably involve the loss of the WLC (mission accomplished), one just a little sooner than the other, and both involve an assassin (or other skitterleaped model) standing on his lonesome on the spot that the WLC used to occupy.

However, I utterly refute the assertion that the location you skitterleap to can be defined solely as "base contact with a model". Reasons given above. :)
Mostly harmless
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