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Skitterleap Vs Skirmishers; Query - skitterleap Vs skirmishers
Topic Started: 16th November 2005 - 04:50 AM (901 Views)
smcgre04
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If my assassin is in contact with a skirmishing unit (which has therefore ranked up against the assassin) can I then skitterleap to the rear of the unit or will the unit re-form against the attack?

Why? For units such as Salamanders and Beastmen, where the weaker models are to the back.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

Hmm...

The way I see it, once formed up in combat a skirmishing unit has flanks and a rear much the same as everybody else. I'd say they don't reform. Then again, when the assassin teleports away they're not in combat anymore...

If another unit is also in combat with the skirmishers, there's no problem and the assassin ends up in the rear. If the assassin is the only one fighting them, it becomes problematic.

The common sense solution would be to say the skirmishers are as much surprised as anyone by an assassin disappearing in a puff of smoke and attacking them from behind, but being flexible skirmishers they can reform to face the assassins in their next movement phase, if they're still in combat.
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Mutator
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Retired fat dude

If you are allowed to skitterleap out of and back into the same combat in the same 'leap, then I guess the skirmishers will just rank up to the assassin again, if he is the only enemy. Whilst the rules dont exactly cater to this situation, I can see no reason why there should be any deviation from the normal skirmisher alignment/ranking rules.

In any case, unless it is a beast herd or contains a character, i dont see any difference from the target unit's point of view: the assassin doesnt gain any positional advantages, and the unit doesnt get significantly effected with respect to the assassin.

So why bother wasting the skitterleap then? Well, there are a number of reasons, some obvious, and some less so:

1. Gets the assassin out of charge arc of enemy, or clears that frontage for incoming friendlies (or template missile fire).

2. Better lines up flee/pursuit corridors

3. Where applicable, can reduce the number of enemy models in base contact with the assassin from 3 to 2.

4. Changes the width and depth of the target unit in some situations.
Mostly harmless
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shlominus
Stormvermin
i say the unit stay the way it is, because at the time it is already ranked up.

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Then again, when the assassin teleports away they're not in combat anymore...


that would be really quick thinking from the skirmishers.

assassin!!! right here, rank up! oi, heīs over there now, reform! :rolleyes:

with most skirmishing units it doesnīt matter at all, but as mentioned by smcrge04 it provides an advantage vs. some units.

i just donīt see the skink handlers making the salamanders react quickly enough to a teleporting enemy. a beastherd would be in complete chaos if an assassin suddenly appeared somewhere else.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

Whilst that may make sense, (and more or less complies with what I adviced as a common sense solution) it isn't what the rules state. Legalese, the unit is out of combat as soon as the Assassin skitterleaps away, and in combat again when he skitterleaps into contact. They're charged again, and form up again.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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shlominus
Stormvermin
Quote:
 
Legalese, the unit is out of combat as soon as the Assassin skitterleaps away,


well, thatīs an opinion. so is the other view.

any official comment on it? thatīs the only thing that counts anyway. unless we have that anyone can play as he likes. skitterleap with eshin has several issues that can be ruled in different ways.
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scrivener
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*toot*

For me, in general a melee isn't fought in nice straight lines anyway, and it's just an artificial system in order to calculate the combat.

If an Assassin is skitterleapt into the rear, it should count as a fresh charge. skirmishers are in ranked formation only in CC, so, when the assassin skitterleaps away from CC, who are the skirmishers ranked up to fight now? If he reappears in the rear, there no longer is someone in front of the skirmishers to keep them occupied, so there's nothing stopping them from turning to face the back. They can be rear-charged when in combat with another coz there's someone else in front keeping them occupied: not so when it's a lone assassin attacking them from all directions. Mind you, they are skirmishers and comfortable fighting in loose, sneaky formation, not in the compressed mass of the standard soldiers.
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Tilara
Grey Seer
Skaskrit Venomclaw
Dec 1 2005, 03:41 AM
the unit is out of combat as soon as the Assassin skitterleaps away, and in combat again when he skitterleaps into contact. They're charged again, and form up again.

That's pretty much how I see it. He might only be gone for an instant, but in the time it takes you to pick up your model and move it to the back of the unit, the skirmisher unit isn't in combat anymore. If you want that tactic to work, charge the unit in the front with a group of nightrunners including an assassin, then skitterleap the assassin in your magic phase. This way the unit never is out of combat at all.

On the whole salamander thing... I found the best way to deal with them is to simply hit them with a big enough skirmish unit to force the skinks to come to the front and die.
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Mutator
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shlominus
Dec 2 2005, 12:06 AM
Quote:
 
Legalese, the unit is out of combat as soon as the Assassin skitterleaps away,


well, thatīs an opinion. so is the other view.

That is not an opinion, that is The Rules.

Sure, they might not always make sense, or represent even a facimile of realism, but if you are going to start bending/suspending/ignoring them here, then where do you draw the line? At what stage do you stop stretching or modifying them to suit? And more importantly, what happens when you come across someone who doesnt play them the same way is you? All you can do is play by the rules as written, because that is all you have in common with your opposition.
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Jackety
FEAR THE LEMMING!
Ahem...I can't quote the rulebook, not having it at hand, and it being against the rules...however, I'm pretty sure that if you leap out of combat with a skirmishing unit and into the back of it, you attack those models, and during the movement phase of the assulted skirmishing unit they form up as normal.

Well, I know that with beasts, the closer models get into the fighting rank, and then next movement phase they form up so the gors are the front and ungors are the rear.

Hope that'll help a bit, but I'd trust Skaskrit or Mutator if I were you, they know what they're talking about.
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shlominus
Stormvermin
Quote:
 
Sure, they might not always make sense, or represent even a facimile of realism, but if you are going to start bending/suspending/ignoring them here, then where do you draw the line? At what stage do you stop stretching or modifying them to suit? And more importantly, what happens when you come across someone who doesnt play them the same way is you? All you can do is play by the rules as written, because that is all you have in common with your opposition.


i am not trying to bend any rule here! i find it a bit rude to imply that.

this is just one of many issues where the rules are not 100% clear, because they were not written with something that came later in mind (the eshin skitterleap spell in this case). there have been faqīs galore, there have been 3 complete books to explain such unclear situations.

Quote:
 
Whilst the rules dont exactly cater to this situation,


unless you can provide something official (maybe you can, then iīll shut up and be happy i know how it is supposed to be played ;) ), anyone can play the way they want.

when in a tourney, ask a ref, he will make a call. then play the way he told you to. in a friendly, talk to your opponent and play in a way both players can agree to.
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Tilara
Grey Seer
shlominus
Dec 2 2005, 01:51 AM
this is just one of many issues where the rules are not 100% clear

Seems pretty clear to me.
Did you remove the only model that was in contact? Yes, thus the unit is unengaged and breaks back into skirmish formation.
Did you (then) engaged an unengaged skrimish unit? Yes, thus the skirmish unit forms up to you.

You're trying to imply that your model is in two places at once, which isn't the case. Even if its very fast, at some point the unit is unengaged, thus no longer "ranked up"... even if its only for the second it takes you to pick up your model and move it to the back of the unit. I would grant you that you count as charging again for the second skitterleap, but that's about it.
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shlominus
Stormvermin
itīs not that clear.

at the moment you teleport away, the target unit has a flank/rear. so you are able to jump there (in game terms you simply say:"i jump to the rear"). no other overrun target loses itīs flank/rear after the overrun-movement has started. so if your interpretation is correct, then we have an exception to the rules.

if teleportation is instantaneous, the assassin disappears and at the same instant appears somewhere else. then the unit would only be unengaged because we have to move a model, not because the were really out of combat.

even if it takes a bit of time to skitterleap, you could still argue that itīs not enough for the target to rearrange themselves. thatīs what common sense tells us anyway. ;)

why would someone prefer a rules-are-rules standpoint when considering a very special situation (not adressed by the rules so far), where a bit of imagination is needed? i think we all agree that it takes a few seconds for a skirmisher unit to reestablish itīs skirmishing formation after a combat.

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Even if its very fast, at some point the unit is unengaged


it probably is, but only a rules-fundamentalist would consider it enough to reform.

(eshin)skitterleap is an exeption to normal (even magical) movement. no other ability lets you do anything comparable. so why is an adaptation to the rules so hard to imagine? as there are more and more special rules coming up, the warhammer rules will change all the time. they have done so before, they will do so in the future.

i really donīt care how anyone plays this. i didnīt bring it up and have not thought of this issue before. what i donīt like is that some people declare "this issue is crystal clear, having another point of view smells like rulesbending". itīs not clear at all, like a lot of other bits in the warhammer rules.

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Deathmaster Mik
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Claw of the Shadow

This seems very clear to me:

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Q. May a Clan Eshin model use the Skitterleap spell to effectively
charge
an enemy unit in a zone that the Clan Eshin model would not be
able to during a normal on foot charge
? For example, may a Clan
Eshin Assassin starting in the front zone of an enemy unit be placed
in base to base contact with a model in the flank or rear zone of
the enemy unit using the Skitterleap spell?

A. Yes to both.
S. Phil Kelly - Warhammer Design Team



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If my assassin is in contact with a skirmishing unit (which has therefore ranked up against the assassin) can I then skitterleap to the rear of the unit or will the unit re-form against the attack?

Why?  For units such as Salamanders and Beastmen, where the weaker models are to the back.
Considering the earlier quote; yes, you can skitterleap to the rear (or side). Units won't reform.

sometimes just looking for an answer beats trying to figure one out.. hehehe

Mik :ph43r:
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shlominus
Stormvermin
while this would support my view of things, i think this quote is not about the situation we are discussing here.

i think the question was about if an assassin thatīs standing in the frontal zone (not in contact) of a unit has to skitterleap into the front as well, because he could only charge that side normally.

as skirmishers donīt have a flank/rear when not in contact the answer deosnīt apply here. itīs simply a different situation, even though the wording could be used to allow what i want. ^_^
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