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is my army SAD
Topic Started: 10th November 2005 - 12:29 PM (556 Views)
Rat Sabbath
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Clanrat
Is my Army a SAD one? i have 13 jezzails ,8 globadiers 2 WLC's 4 enginiers a warlock master, some rat ogres ,giant rats 80 Clan rats, 18 storm vermin ,2 fire throwers and one rattling gun
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Blood Vixen
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All hail the Age of Skaven
i would say its fairly sad because with all those engineers thatll be 12d6 damage a turn mostly
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Depends, what's the point value?

For 3000 points (which is the minimum size for having 5 characters) your amount of shooting is not excessive, but you have rather too many warlocks. It's boring to have just warlocks and warlock masters for characters. Get some fighty characters instead.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

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Bassik Dwarveripper
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I would say; a bit. I wouldn't whine playing it, some people might.
And as Skaskrit the Wise said, switch some engineers for fighter heroes. It makes your list more balanced, and more powerfull. ^_^

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Morkskittar
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Hmm... 2 WLC's is borderline in 3K, I think...

It is on the border of cheese, IMO. Get some fighter heroes, NR, and more Clanrats...................................
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Warlord Gnashik
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I'd say it is pretty close. Mainly, as others have stated, because of the excessive amount of warlocks. Definately keep the Master Warlock because it is in character with the army, but drop at least 2 of the Engineers.

I do like the fact that you favor the WFT over Ratling Guns. I don't think the shooting aspect of your army is terribly overbalanced. Well, the second WLC might be pushing it. I never find them that worthwhile anyhow. Perhaps replace one with a Doomwheel for more variety?

Just my token's worth.

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Mutator
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Morkskittar
Nov 11 2005, 08:43 AM
Hmm... 2 WLC's is borderline in 3K, I think...

I've been playing against 2 WLCs at 2.25K on a fairly regular basis. I'd rather face them than more clanrat/slave combos.

Personally, I think the law of diminishing returns applies to all the long range armour-piercing stuff in the skaven roster. It gets to the stage where (i) your opponent doesnt have enough high value targets to justify their extra expenditure, (ii) shooting units to death denies you the VP from breaking them in combat and stealing their banners, and (iii) if something does get through to your shooters you lose a whole bunch of points. Of course, YMMV.

Alas, ratling guns dont suffer from the same law of diminishing returns. More is better.
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Malignus Rodenticus
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I'd say its not SAD.

First if you are playing a straight Skyre army you should have no other characters but warlock engineers and/or chieftains. So 4 warlock engineers is playing up the theme.

Downside: One spell thats it. No plague, no skitterleap, just warplightning. Second, you need a nine to caus emajor damage to any one unit. Chances are two won't make it per turn.

Upside: You can potentially panic many a unit.

Second: No Rat Ogres, they just do not fit in.

Third: Only 13 Jezzails, seems fair to me (why not go for an even 14).

Fourth: 80 Clan Rats, why not add 10 more and make it 3 units of 30 (rather than 4 units of 20). You get +3 to you leadershi fore a little whiel longer, you will out number most units you encounter getting that all important +1 for a few turns.

Fifth: Lose the Warpfire throwers and replace the with ratling guns, and then let hell lose. Don't be afraid to go for it. Always role at least three dice. If you don't have at least 10 hits on three dice, go for it. Any self respecting skaven would.
Don't be afraid to shoot into hth combat. Any skaven who is stupid enough to get in front of a perfectly good ratling gun deserves to get shot.

Sixth: add two to seven more Stormvermin.

Seventh: With the points you save from losing the ratogres buy a 3 to 4 strong ratswarm unit to cover the flank of a WLC or to slow down teh advance of flanking units.

Lose the globadiers (80 points) use it to boost the stormvermin and or ratswarms.

Eighth: 2 WLC, totally appropriate in a Skyre Army. Plus, chances are (1) will kill itself, and/or one will always be short.

You will be a force to be reconed with, or die trying.


MR

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Boilrot the infectious
Clanrat
my opinion, certain armies cant be deemed as sad, as their main strength is there fire power, its like saying a wood elf army is sad, when in fact it is using its key abilities. so ergo imo skyre armies cant be sad
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Skyre armies can be SAD by definition, as SAD stands for Skryre Army of Doom. (Or Shooty Army of Doom, if you like.)

You might argue this is unavoidable for certain races/armies. You might argue it's not an undesirable thing. But Skyre armies most definitely can be SAD.

Mostly, disputes like these come down to people using different definitions and having different expectations and arguing in circles for hours. For example, person A might shout army 1 is SAD because it has too many ratling guns and this is boring to play against. Person B might argue that army 1 isn't SAD because Ratling Guns are in character for Skryre armies and they have to rely on shooting to stand a chance.

In my opinion, the most practical criterium is the democratic one: an army is SAD if most people who see it think it is. This is relevant, because in the end the term SAD is a condemnation of one's lists by other people for real or perceived cheesiness due to excessive shooting, and the point of asking whether one's army list is SAD is discovering whether said list is likely to suffer such condemnation. (and if necessary making changes to avoid this)
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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brownmccoy
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okay, I wouldnt say it is cheesy or SAD, just very boring to face. I dont mean to be offensice, but.... 4 warlocks and a warlock master? Come on! Swap at least 1 for a chieftain or something else.

However, I am glad you didnt say three ratling guns and 20 jezzails.... Otherwise I'd have to so something...evil... :ph43r:
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farsight
The Happy Buddist
It dosent matter whether an army list is SAD, say you took 5 warlocks, 20 jezzails, 20 globadiers etc etc it would not matter, it is the player that makes it so called "cheesy" have a laugh when you play and no one will call it sad, just overly shooty.

i remember when i played a doubles game using skyre with Vampire counts, halfway through the game we charged each other, made it more fun for us watching his zombies die while we wait for the enemy dwarfs to fire away (beards :unsure: )

Dan
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Malignus Rodenticus
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Attorney to the Rats
farsight
Dec 30 2005, 10:04 AM
It dosent matter whether an army list is SAD, say you took 5 warlocks, 20 jezzails, 20 globadiers etc etc it

5 heroes, you must be playing 2500 battles.


No, I disagree, some lists are just cheesy. For example, a Skyre army with 40 Jezzails, 2 WLC, 3 units of 20 clanrats w/ ratlings guns, and 4 tooled out warlock engineers (one of course w/ storm daemon). THat would be SAD and cheesy.

THat being said. There is a certain gentleman at GW U.S. (though British), by the name of John Matthews, who would use this type of listr. Infact, he does use 40 Jessails.


MR
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