| Battery Wizards; what's the problem? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 28th August 2005 - 09:51 AM (1,370 Views) | |
| Sebrent | 16th September 2005 - 06:04 PM Post #31 |
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Antherak, you completely missed what I was saying about this. They are changing it so that you can't have battery wizards. Thus, that Tzeentch Lord generates his 6 dice maybe +1-2 more from items... definately not gonna cast 3 spells with 4 dice each (that'd be 12 dice). And even then, he's spent 350pts just to have a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch ... that doesn't even include the points he may spend on items. Another thing I'm noticing from other people's post ... taking a wizard as a scroll caddy. Why not put a scroll on an assassin, warlord, etc. I know there are plenty of times you just want to buy that one magic item and have some points left over for magic gear on that hero. Use those points to buy a scroll. Also, the comment that "a smart player will use magic to keep you from getting his wizard in close combat" ... well ... be a smart player as well and use some tactics of your own! Force him to spend more time defending his wizard from your cheap skirmishers or whatever is chasing him. That will give somewhat of a reprieve to your targets you don't want him casting on. The new magic system that will cancel out battery wizards is a good thing, especially for Skaven. I don't know about you guys, but I don't use/need battery wizards. A Grey Seer casts his stuff fine on his own (especially with a bell ... which will be more cost efficient after this magic change btw ... gotta love that!) and warlock engineers cast their lightning.
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| Lightbringer | 16th September 2005 - 06:13 PM Post #32 |
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Chaos git
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First of all its only a rumour. Second of all, battery wizards are not the problem. It doesn't matter if I cast 4 spells with my lord if I pay the points for that magic, as long as the amount of damage I can cause is in propotion to the points. I am not supposed to win the battle with one character, even if he is at 400p. Its the spells and the general power level that are the main issues (although everything should get an overhaul). And you can be pretty sure that if they don't allow battery wizards, then the whole way you generate dice will be changed.
Only wizards can use dispell scrolls, read the rules aon page 154. It says under the dispell scroll rules that only wizards can ujse them, and under Arcane Items on page 153 it states scrolls can only be used by wizards. |
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| Sebrent | 16th September 2005 - 06:17 PM Post #33 |
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Oh, well then bah. Take a cheap warlock engineer and give him 2 dispell scrolls ... only 95pts, and he generates a dispel dice as he's a level 1 wizard (page34 in the Skaven army book). Cheap lil bugger for stopping two spells automatically and bringing your dispel pile to 3 dice. This magic phase change is truly going to benefit Skaven, you guys just wait and see. |
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| Lightbringer | 16th September 2005 - 08:23 PM Post #34 |
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Chaos git
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You are still missing the point ![]() People think its bad that you have to take a caddy. You should be able to take magic by have superior numbers or things like that instead. And as for who the change will benefit... since all armies are likly to get an overhaul, its a bit early to say. But hopfully it will become more balanced and thus better for everyone. |
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| Antherak_173 | 18th September 2005 - 10:56 PM Post #35 |
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Evil Overlord
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@sebrent: a tz lord generates 4 dices, plus 2 for army, plus 1 for EACH tz marked unit. My opponent generally has 4 to 6 units marked, so he could use between 10 to 12 dices himself even with the use own dice rules so in theory cast 4 spells with 3 dices or 3 with four dices. But after thinking and after having backed up and taken a more distant and general look at this problem, the more i see this, and the more i think it only resume an old debate. The opinions in each boards this problem was talked about always go 2 ways. The ones who say it's ok and normal that a big 500pts monster character kills his points worth back with his game winning abilities versus the ones who like troops to get the job done. See a pattern ? Yes ! The old argument about players liking the 5th edition hero hammer where 2 or 3 uber-characters did all the job versus the 6th edition players that likes armies battles. In my opinion, gamers found some ways to abuse and over use magic to give themselves every chances they can to win, and it only brought back the ancient ways we played. And i think, in a way, that it is GW's fault that this way came back. They had done a great job at balancing the armies for the new style of play, in which the game was won through tactics and not through the character with the black amulet and the golden helm on dragon, until they did the chaos book. With this book, all broke loose and the core/special/rare criteria all went to garbage. After that, each armies became more and more powerful. You may enjoy thrashing the opposition army with your 4 full-geared wizards, but this way of playing is over. So get over it, build decent well rounded armies and play. This is a game, and games are made for fun, not to build over-powered lists to trash all opposition to smithereens. It's not because you have the possibility to do something that you must do it. And about scroll caddies: mega-magic is never fun for the opponent facing it, but i'll also say that scroll caddies aren't fun either to the magic player. Because something is lame does not justify to be countered by another lame thing such as a caddy. But i don't target magic armies in perticular. Lists like the old wood elves and the SoC eshin aren't fun to pay against either. But i found that all armies that are criticized have one point in common: opponents can't do anything no matter what army list they have, be it unable to stop the spells raining on them or being unable to catch the enemy units all game long. What do you think ? |
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My Wants My Haves | |
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| Lightbringer | 19th September 2005 - 12:04 AM Post #36 |
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Chaos git
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Depends on what you mean. If you mean that its bad when you can take any phase of the game (shooting or magic or even combat) to far and win by just pumping out spells or cannonballs, then yes, I totaly agree. Although I don't agree that magic has to lead to this if that is what you mean. Not even if an army can have 5 mages and 20 bound spells (not that any army I know of can have 20 bound spells). Its all about what that magic can do. If 5 mages are reduced to the efficiensy of 5 archers... then its nothing. If they are on the level they are now its over the top. Its got nothing to do with what it is, just the power level of it. |
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| Antherak_173 | 19th September 2005 - 01:09 AM Post #37 |
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Evil Overlord
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That is exactly what i meant. When someone has superiority in one of the phases (movement, shooting, magic or combat), it is good, heck even recommended and fluffy for most armies. It is when someone dominate so completely a phase that it becomes less appealing, and it's even worse when you totally own 2 of those phases. Then, it don't matter what the opponent do, he will be destroyed in that phase alone. With magic, i feel (and experienced many times) that it is very much easier to dominate, and that the domination of the magic is very much more powerful than dominating any other phases. Yes, mages should be more powerful that 1 archer. They should be (lv2) as powerful as a warmachine, meaning can reliably deal damage, have a possibility to deal more damage and the flaw of being able to miscast. |
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My Wants My Haves | |
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| SingTheScreams | 19th September 2005 - 01:47 AM Post #38 |
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Call me Sings
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has anyone considdered that it would be possible to draw magic towards oneself but let it be siphoned off by other mages? considder this. a level four mage and two level two mages are partaking in a battle. By the cheesiness of this im assuming they're high elves. all four mages are generating their own power dice (archmage has 4, mages have 2 each). Add to this the natural magical energy in the surroundings (2 base dice), and you have your total amount of power dice. think of it in terms of each of the wizards gathering their magical energies around themselves, then as each casts a spell they use up the magical energy around them. To agument their spells they can siphon off magic from the mages around them in the same way as they siphon magic from the area around them (2 base dice). In this way the level twos would be actively contributing magical energy to the battle without actually casting spells. Think of it more like they are gathering energy around them, so are in fact not gathering magic to themselves but instead the surrounding area. They arent actively pushing their energies towards the archmage to be used, nor are they acting as a conduit through which the archmage can draw more power, but instead simply draw in more magic energy to the area in the same way that the 2 "base" dice are available. Once the magic energy is there, it is open to be used by any friendly mages. why only friendly mages can use it is easily explained by the very concept of the "winds of magic".. they can navigate the currents of the winds in much the same way you can navigate a river, choosing which channels you wish to draw energy into so that it reaches locations near friendly mages instead of enemy ones. i think i explained that clearly but if i lost you id be glad to try again to explain. basically, your two "base" dice represent magical energy in your surroundings. Additional mages, instead of gathering power dice as 'their own' energy, gather the energy into the surrounding area - hence the archmage can fluffwise use it no problem. |
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| Lightbringer | 19th September 2005 - 02:56 AM Post #39 |
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Chaos git
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Sounds pretty logical to me. The more mages you have, the more control your side will have over the winds of magic. The more control you have over them, the more power your mages will have. So exactly who is generating the dice is not so relevant, the fact that there is another mage there to help guide the winds still aids the archmade so he can cast more of his spells. |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 19th September 2005 - 01:34 PM Post #40 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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Whilst perfectly true fluff-wise, it's completely irrellevant to the gameplay-based discussion at hand. Yes, sharing dice is logical and fluffy. But it doesn't change the fact that as things stand mages probably are an unbalancing and fun-reducing factor in the game. That said, I stand with lightbringer in this discussion. The sharing of power dice is not the problem. (The sheer number of dice some armies can amass may be part of it, though.) It's the spell lists that should be revised. I don't know how the balance between fun and interesting spells on the one hand, and a survivable magic phase dealing damage in proportion to points spend on it on the other hand. The solution I proposed earlier makes things more fiddly and may yet further unbalance the game if some armies become much more vulnerable to magic than others. Problem is, I don't know a better solution. Here's to hoping GW can come up with one. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| Sebrent | 19th September 2005 - 04:27 PM Post #41 |
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If we're talking about things that make games no fun, we should be talking about SAD armies which generally take a lot of shooting, not magic (though some of them employ some magic ... but it's the ridiculous amount of shooting that does it for them). As far as magic spells being unbalanced. I really disagree. Even if your opponent (Tzeentch, for example) has tons of power dice, he can only cast 4-5 spells with a level 4 wizard (his lord) of which he must first not fail, and then, you can use your dice to stop or a scroll/other item. You don't get the chance to counter shooting, and it is often much less costly than a wizard. Yes, artillery can blow itself up and shots can miss, but that's comparable to a mage not rolling high enough for his spell. Also, for someone to be able to dominate the magic phase, they must have spent a LARGE amount of points to do so. Thus, you should be able to dominate the other aspects of the game while throwing out a dispel dice or scroll here and there to lessen the effects of their domination of the magic phase. If you're playing a game where Tzeentch has enough points to generate 14 power dice, then you're playing a fairly large sized battle. Thus, you should be able to take enough units/scrolls to withstand his magical onslaught. Heck, Tzeentch's spells are Red Fire (magic missiles), Orange Fire (ward save), Green Fire (models in unit attack each other ... characters not affected ... nor are mounts), Blue Fire (magic missile), Indigo Fire (weak magic missile that can generate Horrors), and Violet Fire (chance to kill an enemy character if he fails a Ld test). I don't see any BIG GAME WINNING SPELLS here. I see a ward save, lots of magic missiles (like a shooting phase that you can dispel, oh no! lol) and the ability to kill one of your heroes (hmmm, the type of spell to save your scroll for!) I think the reason so many of you have trouble with magic is that you don't want to spend the time THINKING about it when that is in fact what the magical phase is about. It's like a small game of chess in which you try to draw out your opponent's dispel dice and scrolls so that you can get off that big spell ... it's very simple, just requires a little thought.) All a magic-heavy Tzeentch army is is a Chaos Army with even less models but has a shooting phase (during the magic phase) that you have the option of dispelling. Now, I know some of you are going to bring up that SLaanesh has spells that move your units ... well ... Slaanesh can't generate as many power dice as Tzeentch. So just be tactful with your dispel dice/scrolls ... they have a much harder time overpowering the magic phase, and sacrifice even more than Tzeentch when they do. Originally, this topic was about GW changing it so you couldn't bring wizards just to act as "batteries" for your level 4 wizard. This makes it even less likely for magic domination to run an entire game, which has been my point this whole time. Presently, if you read some of the topics here and on other forums, you'll find that many tournament winning armies don't even use magic (Beastmen are very good at this ... AMBUSH!) |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 19th September 2005 - 06:02 PM Post #42 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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As far as Tzeentch is concerned, you're right. That lore has no real game winning spells, though one might still argue the sheer amount of dice a Tzeentch player can gather is the same as the Empire player bringing 4 greatcannons and 2 hellblasters, or the Skaven player using 30 jezzails and 5 ratling guns.
Yes, this is what Lightbringer was saying, more or less. Magic can be used as an offensive force, and if your opponent invests in mages it's only logical to expect they will hurt you, and you can even invest in defences if you're so inclined to stop the magic missiles he sends your way.
Here, however, you're missing the point. The point was that currently in Warhammer you are forced to use wizards to defend yourself against enemy magic, because if you don't, some armies have spells that can destroy you. Slaaneshi magic is the case in point. (though Necromancy is just as bad) If you don't have any wizards or anti-magic items, and your opponent has a couple of Slaaneshi wizards, the battle is almost lost already, because you have no way of defending yourself against their game-winning spells. Sure, if you bring wizards and scrolls of your own, you can beat Slaanesh. But the point is you shouldn't have to do that. If everybody is forced to take one or more scroll caddies at the very least, the game becomes less interesting as armies look more and more alike, and people who want to use magic are more or less forced to invest large amounts of points and take several mages because everybody uses scroll caddies. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| phordicus | 19th September 2005 - 06:54 PM Post #43 |
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Battlemaster of Clan Skrikkik
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let me see if i can summarize this. there are three "methods" by which you can kill your enemy: shooting, combat, and magic. of the three, only magic can effectively counter itself, whereas shooting and combat can be countered by itself, one of the others, or a combination. because magic is rarely counterable by anything other than itself, especially concerning spells that aren't direct damage, it forces players to adopt a style of army that they either don't like or don't want. i think they should assign levels to the spells again, 1-4, where the level of the spell is the minimum level of the wizard needed to cast it. i also think any and all bound spells should be one-use only. finally, dispel scrolls need to be made common so any character can use them. |
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Skaveni primi, skaveni infiniti. ![]() if you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword; but do not show your poem to one who is not a poet. - japanese proverb | |
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| Lightbringer | 19th September 2005 - 08:58 PM Post #44 |
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Chaos git
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Very good summary phordicus, precisly how I see it. Allowing dispell dice for normal characters would actually go a long way I think. I don't know about other people, but for me its not uncommon to have a character with no or very little items, so if I wanted magic defence I could just give them a scroll. It would let people defende themselves without having to take mages of their own. |
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| Sebrent | 20th September 2005 - 01:48 PM Post #45 |
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Aye, I really like the idea of adding dispel scrolls to non-wizard characters. However, I don't think we'll need that after GW has finished tweaking the magic system. After they are done, armies using Slaanesh/Necromantic magic etc. are going to have wizards who generate just enough power dice to get off 1-2 big spells if they want a good chance of casting the spell (eg. rolling approx 3 dice for each). This will keep those level 4 wizards from casting 4-5 spells per turn (which we all know hurts). If you actually look at Slaanesh's spell list, it isn't very bad right now either: Blissful Throes (magic missile) Luxurious Torment (frenzy and frenzied unit takes dmg each turn), Titillating Delusions (makes enemy unit move toward a spot on map ... remains in play so can be dispelled each turn, wizard who cast can't cast any other spells w/o it dispelling, and if the wizard that cast it dies, it is dispelled) Delectable Tortue (enemy character attacks his own unit/army) Enrapturing Spasms (enemy unit doesn't move, cast, shoot, and is automatically hit in CC) Delicious Excruciation (friendly unit is unbreakable, replaces Instability rules for daemons ... spell remains in play so can be dispelled each turn, cast can't cast any other spells w/o it being dispelled, and it is dispelled if the caster dies) The two worst of those imho are Titillating Delusions and Delicious Excruciation ... both of which, once cast, make the wizard no longer a wizard while he wants them to remain in play; a sacrifice your opponent has to make in order to do those really powerful spells ... which are still easily countered. Now let's looks at Necromancy: Invocation of Nehek (summons zombies/skeletons to join a unit or create a new unit within 18" of the caster ... or restores wound(s) to a character) Hand of Dust (target character reduced to one attack but that attack kills automatically if it hits) Hellish Vigour (undead within 18" attack first and reroll misses) Gaze of Nagash (magic missile) Vanhel's Danse Macabre (Undead within 18" make an additional move/charge 8") Curse of Years (wounds models in unit on 6+, then 5+, then 4+ ... you get the idea ... it remains in play so caster can no longer cast spells, it can be dispelled each magic phase, and is dispelled if the caster dies). Curse of Years is the spell I hear most people gripe about. However, it isn't a bad threat at all. Try to dispel it when it is initially cast, if you fail, you take wounds on a 6+ ... then next time throw out a scroll before it gets ridiculous. Hellish Vigour and Vanhel's Danse Macabre are there because Undead units (as we all know) are quite poor in the area of WS and I and since they don't have any non-magical shooting, they need to move as fast as they can. Invocation of Nehek is how Vampire Counts make up for their lack of initial numbers in a fight. It just means the enemy has more skeletons in a unit, or that you need to make sure that character dies before the magic phase (or use a dispel scroll to stop his healing), and protect your flanks from magically summoned skeletons/zombies. All this requires is tactics ... which is what warhammer is all about. Finally, Hand of Dust is a nice spell, but it is also a remains in play spell (you know what that means now, I hope) and they have to get that character into close combat for it to even matter. So, now you just have to use common sense. If he is in close combat and casts it, make sure you dispel it. If he isn't in close combat and casts it, try some dispel dice and if that fails, use a scroll before he gets that hero into close combat. The two most deadly spells are Curse of Years and Hand of Dust and they are both Remains in Play spells. We've all dealt with Invocation of Nehek for a while now and it is no big problem for those of us to playing against the Undead. Now, is there any other magic list I need to go over that has the ability to "dominate" a game? Also, once again, magic heavy armies in no way are as annoying as SAD armies. |
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... gotta love that!) and warlock engineers cast their lightning.







