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Battery Wizards; what's the problem?
Topic Started: 28th August 2005 - 09:51 AM (1,371 Views)
Sebrent
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I see no problem with the idea of changing the magic phase to prevent wizard-batteries. Yes, an alternative to this would be to have an enclave of wizards stick together, but that doesn't provide much tactical flexibility, plus, if they are all in the same unit, who cares which one of them casts the spell then. The reason they are doing this is so a player can't buy a powerful wizard and then a bunch of battery wizards and hide the battery wizards somewhere on the battlefield while the main wizard uses all their power dice to cast his plethora of spells. Now, players have to decide which wizard(s) with which spells will be useful in which places with which units. It provides a lot more thought to the use of wizards in the game. Also, I don't see why any Skaven should be bother by it. Our casters have warpstone tokens for extra power dice which are mainly used just by the Grey Seer. Our warplock engineers only cast one spell and produce plenty of power dice to cast it, and, personally, I don't see why you'd not want to cast warplightning with your Grey Seer and then with your engineer, and only risk wounding the Grey Seer with one of those casts. Let's put a bit more thought into what this is actually going to do and what it is preventing.
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Silver
Stormvermin
just to answer whoever said that empire would take heavens magic ....

personnaly against skaven I'd go for fire or death magic, and cross my fingers for lots of missiles/fire wall/fatalitas

thats enough to destroy skaven blocks :/

its true it would really make it nice to play without a mage in the army from time to time :/

But then I dont see how to do it :/
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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I would use shadow magic, for the movement spells, fear causing spell and shooting protection spell. (great to protect against jezzails.) It's all in personal preference. I just observed that most players use heavens magic, so that's the one to plan against.

Personally, I'd deem fire and death magic to be quite poor against a Skaven horde. Though they have more magic missiles than other lores, they're not powerful enough to seriously hurt an army of 250 models, and unlike heavens magic the Skaven can hide their vulnerable units from Fireballs.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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Lightbringer
Chaos git
I don't think the problem is in how power works, its the spells themselves.

If you have no magic defence and someone comes along with a few wizards that have normal magic missiles as spells, then you will get hurt a bit each magic phase. But it will not be that bad, no different from the scenario where he brings a few cannons instead, then you will be hurt a bit in each shooting phase. You can survive that, after all you will have more troops or other characters instead.

But if he brings a few wizards who have lores such as Slaanesh, where he can control the movement of your units and send you most powerfull units of in the wrong directions, or when he can cast a dozen of comets in your head, or start remains in play spells that will wipe out whole units with ease if you can't stop them, then it goes to far. Its those spells that creates the must to defend against magic. Had it just been a few magic missiles you could have spend your points on getting more troops and fought it that way, but you can't fight against spells like that with just more troops, you must have magic defence or you are screwed.

A varied and fun spell-list is good, but they should do away with battlewinning spells, because they are they problem.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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I concur, that's the root of the problem. (I thought of that too, and was going to write a post about it. No, Really!)

On the other hand, one wouldn't want the disappearance of all the cool and subtle spells.

A possible solution would be to implement something like the Dungeons and Dragons "save versus spell." A magic missile would still work as it does now, but against other spells there would be some kind of extra test to resist the effect.

For example: all the slaaneshi spells would only take effect on a failed leadership test. Movement spells would have random ranges and allow the targets to make charge reactions. Other spells perhaps would require toughness tests or initiative tests to resist.

This way, even the more insiduous magics could be weathered, especially by decent-quality units with good stats.

To prevent magic from weakening too much, this could be combined with removing or altering Dispel Scrolls. (perhaps make them work on a 4+ only?) I feel dispel scrolls are one of the things that cripple the system. They're so readily available and almost fool-proof, the only way to beat them becomes to go completely over the top on magic. The result is an arms race.

Finally, one could implement a maximum amount of wizard levels for a certain point value to prevent wizards from single-handedly blasting armies with their magic missiles.

I feel a system like this would make things much more balanced without removing the fun-factor.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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Antherak_173
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Evil Overlord
The problem came, i think, with the specialized magic schools. With the 8 lores, only one spell was feared: the comet, and still, it only crippled some forces, not wiping it all. Now, when one has access to spells that hit all models in a unit, like the (forgot color) tzeentch spell, plague, curse of years, black horror, pit of shades, that hurt. Next, we have spells that affect movement, ally and enemy. Van hels, urgency, the slaanesh illusion spell, the slaanesh frenzy spell that you can cast on enemy unit, as well as "ignore LOS / targetting restriction but hit more than 1 time, like the foot of gork or that horrible dark emissary spell.

And still, 1 copy of each can still be dealth with, but again, some lores have more than one tricky spell, and when someone get 3 or 4 of them, that's when it really hurt. (no, it's not fun playing against a 16 PD tzeentch list, with re-roll staff and 3x 16 horror units. Even with 6 scrolls, you don't stop it) I think lores should have more choices of spells for variety.

Like someone said earlier, dispel dices should go up for each point range, but for it to work, dispel scrolls should be as well. Maybe a unique item, that still automatically dispels a spell, and on 5+ the wizard can't use said spell anymore.

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Grey seer White Paw
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the only prob with giving another save based on ld, is that races like dwarfs would be near inpenatrable, and skaven clanrats in ranks would be too, i dont think slaneesh users would like that idea, but i like the idea of the extra ressistance. maybe generated by unit strength? u know the will power of 25 rats saying "but i dont want a comet to land o me head thank u very much"
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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It depends. A slaaneshi spell wouldn't work well against Dwarfs, true. But if you to take an intiative test for some spells, say Foot of Gork... then those would hurt the dwarfs again.

And a unit with brilliant stats like Chaos warriors would be harder to affect, true. But if you did, the enemy would be in bigger trouble because it's a very expensive unit by definition.

It's just a general idea of course, and it'd need working out and balancing. I just think it'd make for a better system in the end.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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Lightbringer
Chaos git
It would need alot of balancing to work, because as long as there is one battle winning spell that your troops is weak against its to much, in a tournament you would have to bunker up on magic defence so you don't automaticly loose if you run into someone with that spell. And I am not to fond of certain lores beeing better against certain armies, I think all armies should be balanced to fight each other. Why should I pay extra points because my lore is good against Orcs when I fight against Elves? Or why should I not pay extra points for a lore thats specialy good against Orcs if I am fighting against Orcs? The concept itself is not balanced.

Also, spells that require an extra test after they are cast aren't that fun. I play Tzeentch (no, no 16PD :P) and I never ever use the last spell since I first have to cast it and then the enemy must fail a LD test for it to work. I don't want to spend power on casting a spell just to have it do nothing most of the time.
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Sebrent
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Once again, I see no problem with the way any of these big spells are as it is. "Curse of Years" (Necromancy) requires 10+, Afflictions req 10+ (Nurgle), Pestilence req 11+ (Nurgle), Blue/Indigo/Violet Fire (Tzeentch) req 9+/11+/12+, Titillating Delusions req 8+ (Slaanesh), Comet of Casandora req (Heavens) 11+, Plague (skaven) req 13+. If you haven't noticed the pattern yet for these spells that affect entire units in their various ways it's that they each require at LEAST 2 power dice to cast, many people use 3 to give them a more than minimal chance to get the spell off. Now, first of all, they have a chance of not even rolling high enough to cast these powerful spells, THEN they have a chance of casting a pair of snake-eyes and having all hell break loose on their wizard, THEN, IF they got past those two parts, you can just throw out a scroll from a caddy or attempt to use your dispel dice.

If you look at wizards, they all fit somewhere on a spectrum between extremely expensive (Tzeentch and Vampire Counts), and horrible in close combat. So, now, your opponent who uses lots of magic has sunk points into wizards, you can stop the spells that hurt you most with simple dispel scrolls and save the dispel dice for the other spells, or whatever tactic you like. Also, if they have wizards that are weak in close combat, kill them in close combat, we post tactics on this site all the time about sending night/gutter runners to kill off enemy wizards, and hell, if the wizard is expensive as well, kudos for you as you just nabbed some devastating points killing that 200pt character who fought like a cripple. If your enemy is Tzeentch or Vampire counts, you can do anything from taking advantage of his lack of other units (as his wizard(s) are taking up tons of his points) to targetting that very expensive wizard and nabbing some game-winning victory points just from him (especially in the case of Vampire Counts).

A point I think a lot of people are missing about the magic phase is that you are NOT suppose to be able to completely nullify your enemy's magic phase without spending the proper amount of points into wizards yourself (example: Tzeentch, or Dwarfs with Runesmiths w/ Runes) The reason you have scroll caddies is for WHEN your opponent actually does get off that big spell (and doesn't roll 2x6s) you just read your little scroll and waste his spell. You probably won't want to waste your scrolls on magic missile spells, and so you will take some damage in the magic phase, but I don't see armies like Beastmen or Chaos when the shooting phase comes along and they got shot up w/o much they can do about it. Thus is the magic phase. Your opponent spent points in magic, those points are going to most likely hurt you, you just have to reduce the amount of hurt they inflict, just like with the shooting/close combat phases of Warhammer.

Another good thing about this is it makes it so that a Rank 4 wizard has to think more about which spell(s) he's going to cast and how much of HIS OWN power to put into them. It prevents a Tzeentch wizard from using 4 power dice each to cast of his 9+/10+/11+ spells.

Magic in Warhammer CAN be powerful, but it's hard to get those powerful spells off with Miscasts, high roll requirements, and scroll caddies.

----Skaven Mathhammer
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Antherak_173
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Evil Overlord
I'm sorry, but i don't agree with you. It's very esay for a tzeentch lord to use 4 dices for each of it's spells. The averages are he'll throw a 14, and still the chances of double 1's are as great as double 6's. And to stop 3 or 4 spells casted with 4 dices each, that's impossible, even with scrolls.

Like that time i faced a slaan, that casted 6 spells a turn (extra spell item plus drain magic) that had the power to add 1 dice to each spell he casted and that couldn't miscast. Yeah, he didn't had much units, and yeah i was positionned perfectly to wipe him, but each time, he'd cast a 5 dices pit of shade to stop my units charging as well as killing 1/2 of it. that was nothing my meager 3 DD and 1 scroll could do.

And about suicide mage killing, didn't you remarked that the wizards with the most deadlier lores were the hardest ones to kill ? Those darned chaos and beasts mages HAVE To4, as well has having more armor save than even our skaven warlord can just dream of. And those puny necromancers. You still have to pass that fear check with our lousy Ld of 6 or 7, depending on gutter or night runner units. And still, it all comes to some dice rolls, that if you do not those 2 wounds now, he beat your unit and still has his wiz. And you say they are weak in hth. Yeah, but a clever opponent will use his magic so you'll never reach hth. And about being outshot, that's not in the same league. Shooting only deal with doing some damage, like having an all magic missiles spell list. That nowhere near as efficient as dictating the movement of a unit to destroy a battleline.

I generally only put 1 wizard with 1 scroll, or none at all, depending if my opponent has access to a game winning spell. but thats me. I dislike dispel scroll, as i too think they are way too good. (ooh, you'r seer took 5 of your 7 dices to try that plague spell ? scroll !) I hate that.

And like some here said, heavy magic (a Lv4 with 2Lv 2's) is not that difficult to soak, it's when people start min-maxing their armies to generate an uber-number of power dices that come hard. And that is reserved to only some armies, like HE, Tzeentch, night goblins (with extra 2 chars as fighters). Instead of having items that generates "general" extra power dice like HE banner of sorcery, make those items to be wizard specific to be used (you buy this to him, he only can use it), and limit a wizard to use the dices he generates, and in my opinion, all will be good. The player with many wizards will still cast his 5+ spells a turn and do it's damage, but the higher spells will be harder to cast with less dices, and the dispelling player will have a chance to use his dispel dices on those low casting spells.

I'm usually able to manage and hold myself against heavy magic, but still suffer heavy loss and i don,t care, he bought it for that reason, but that is when people go OTT that sickens me. But generally, only power players do that, like a guy i know that load on ratlings, jezzails, seer, engineers, cannons and say to us: they have been put in the list to be used, so i use them, and don't understand that it makes the game not fun.
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Lightbringer
Chaos git
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THEN, IF they got past those two parts, you can just throw out a scroll from a caddy or attempt to use your dispel dice.

Your missing the point. As you I think that if you spend little points on defence against magic you should get hurt, just like you would if you didn't defend against other things. The problem is that have HAVE to take the caddy against certain lores, you can't ignore magic defence and try to win by streanght in numbers or anything similar.

If you have no magic defence and face say magic heavy Slaanesh, you will never be able to use the fact that you have more troops, your troop will be all over the place facing the wrong direction :P
With a caddy, you can stop the battlewinning spells, you might get hurt from the rest but you will have more troops etc. Without the caddy... you are toast.


Thats the problem. You should be able to play with no magic defence, its kind of boring that armies are forced to take a wizard as a caddy. Sure, you should get hit hard in the magic phase without defence, but you should still be able to fight back with superior numbers etc. Some lores simply makes that impossible if you have no defence. Turst me, me and my friend once tried a magic heavy Tzeentch army against a army with no magic defence. he had no chance what so ever. The magic missiles he could take, he had enough troops to do that, but the "hits everyone" spells wiped him out. It doesn't matter if your units are bigger, that just means more hits! ;)
Without a caddy, you can't survive since certain spells must be stopped.
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Bassik Dwarveripper
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I have more problems with the amount of mages used.
I usually see 2-3 in 2k games, and I think that is waaay too much, considdered how rare these people are. Do they just bring in their entire court of wizards for a minor skirmish? Would you?
I once played a 3k game without any magic at all, not even items. (altough stuff like Skryre machines and Daemons where still allowed)
It was very refreshing. ^_^ Like a Pepsi, but not the Pepsi Max, because of the absence of sugar and life-giving caffeïne. How could anyone drink that crap? And diet cola is not betther either. Not only is the can a ugly white, but it makes you look gay if you use it. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, but with diet cola, you are wrong. All diet-coke drinkers most leave the country! *shakes fist, then drinks more caffeïne goodness*
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Horned Shadow
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One way of balancing could be making the mages more costly to be lost in battle. Per lost magic level add 25 points when calculating battle resolution. So losing a lvl4 lord would cost you 100 points extra. So for an example a whole seer counsil 250 points+100 for general. That IMO could represent their importance like the 100 points for general.
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Antherak_173
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Evil Overlord
But Bas, the number of wizards is irrelevant to true magic heavy armies. I play tzeentch often, and his army consist of a chaos lord (lv4) and an exalted (lv2 with spell familiar) Yeah, that's "only" 2 wizards and "only" 7 spells, but he regularly cast 6 of the 7 spells he choose each turn, with the cheap PD generators, like tz chariots and units, and often has 13+ power dices. That is, of course, in addition to the 1 to 3 16 horro units he puts in, that each generates a PL 8 bound spell.

But i also remarked that the problem may also come from spell choices. In most lores, you have good spells, as well as bad, so while looking for the spell you get, you are "naturally" limited in using the good spells. But in the newest ones, all spells are good and useful, thus making more good casting, thus hurting more.

When do you see a grey seer cast pestilent breath ? rarely. and skitterleap ? except maybe 1 time a game for a combo like warlock/death globes, almost never. Why do the hand of dust spell on a vampire count make so much people sad ? The incantation that does a mighty 1D6 St4 hits of TK ? But in some lores, like say gastromancy, all 6 spells are powerfull and potentially useful against all.

So, that is not only the mages that needs a tune up, but the lores as well.
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