| Battery Wizards; what's the problem? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 28th August 2005 - 09:51 AM (1,367 Views) | |
| Madthing | 28th August 2005 - 09:51 AM Post #1 |
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Chieftain
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Now, maybe not on this board, as I haven't really checked the 7th Ed threads, but on other boards I visit, every time somebody talks about overhauling the magic system, one of the problems that people bring up is the concept of 'battery wizards', or perhaps 'duracell mages' or something like that. 'Energiser warlocks'? Anyway, more specifically, they seem to have something against having them around. These guys typically want wizards to only be able to use their own power dice and those generated naturally by the army. While this doesn't seem like a really bad idea, it also doesn't strike me as a really good idea either. I'm not exactly sure what their problem is, exactly. To me, it seems perfectly natural that somebody turns up to a battle whose sole purpose is to help other people perform better. The main purpose of a battle standard bearer, particularly Skaven ones, is to make the troops around them run away less, not rack up lots of personal kills. Is it so wrong that some wizards come along just so that they can support their more powerful colleagues? Don't get me wrong here. Personally, I don't really like the idea that I pretty much have to take along a wizard in every battle just to ward off enemy spells, and to that end, I think the magic system could do with a little changing. But I really don't see anything wrong with the idea of battery wizards. If somebody here does, could they please enlighten me? |
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| scrivener | 28th August 2005 - 10:08 AM Post #2 |
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*toot*
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The ad below tells me that there's a company here called the Battery Wizard. ![]() WHFB has gradually made a move from hero and magic gameplay to tactical warfare gameplay. This is probably just to prune the magic system for that purpose. While, in terms of fluff, I can see a wizard casting a spell while surrounded by a circle of adepts, I have trouble trying to imagine wizards in the middle of a fight spending out their vibes to the main wizard half way across the battlefield |
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| Lightbringer | 28th August 2005 - 11:35 AM Post #3 |
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Chaos git
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I have no trouble at all imagening just that. If a grey seer is on the field, all other people who cdan control the wins are there to help him (unless they want to get toasted afterwards). Magic might need to get fixed a bit (although not much according to me), but that would just be a stupid fix. |
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| Morkskittar | 28th August 2005 - 12:23 PM Post #4 |
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The Tunnel's Resident Rodent Ecologist
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I don't see the problem. Mages send off vibes anyway, they don't have to conciously do it. As such, they can simply choose not to cast spells, and other mages can use these vibes to cast more spells. When I use a Grey Seer, I use this a lot. I, andlots of others, would be very unhappy with this change. It would also mean less spells cast per turn for your seer... |
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The Eldritch Wastes: A Post-Lovecraftian Online Serial Novel (Author Website) Pub Fight Deaths: 334. Pillz and Pyllz are © by Morkskittar. ![]() Complete Works of Morkskittar / You Have Just Lost the Game 'zodi | |
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| brownmccoy | 28th August 2005 - 05:31 PM Post #5 |
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Grey Seer
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I have no problem with it, and here is my alternative for magic: 1000 points- no magic 1500 points-might consider having a mage 2000 points- lvl 4 mage and maybe a lvl 1 mage this is of course diffrent with my O&G, which is: 1000 points-a lvl 2 or a lvl 2 and a lvl 1 1500 points- 2-3 lvl 2s (and a big boss as my general) 2000 points- a lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2s (with 2 cheap big bosses to make gobbo units better). I dont really fear magic... which is probably rather dumb, but I win over half of my games ![]() edit: now that I read my post I realize it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.... |
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| Warlock Rageaganish | 28th August 2005 - 06:01 PM Post #6 |
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!
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Hum... Perhaps a more constructrive aproach would be to have mage "lend" their unused powerdice to nearby mage. I don't know, a mage within 6" of another can give him his powerdice? This way, you would get the whole 'mage and circle of apprentice' approach... In order for the mage to get more power, the apprentice would need to be close by... Otherwise, the mage cast with his own power... Just an idea to keep the discussion running... |
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| Warlord Gnashik | 28th August 2005 - 06:46 PM Post #7 |
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Backing Veer-myn Dreadball teams!
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I guess I don't really see anything wrong with using wizards this way. However, it is just GW's attempt to streamline the games system and take away some of magic's power. Like scrivener said, GW seems to want to make their games actual wargames with tactics and stuff. I like Rage's idea of powreing up nearby wizards. GW might also come up with some sort of common magic item that'd allow a lesser mage to lend power to his superior. In 3rd edition 40k GW took away the variety that psykers had in 2nd edition. A lot of players complained about it and now you see a little more diversity of powers, but no where near the power they had in 2nd edition. The same could happen here. Neuter magic in 7th edition and then loosen the reigns a little bit for 8th edition. |
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| Antherak_173 | 29th August 2005 - 09:02 PM Post #8 |
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Evil Overlord
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The main problem i see is that it's way easier to boost the generation of power dice than it is for dispel dice (those cap quite fast) But even if the dispel dices could be easily generated, it would only do an escalation in both power and dispel dices until both players attain their maximum. An easy solution i would like to see is this: Limit the number of power dice/bound spells an army can have, depending on the points range for the game, the same way as special/rare slots are. Example: In >499 pts = +1 power dice max, no bound spell In 500-999 = +2 power dices max, 1 bound spell In 999-1999 = +4 power dices max, 1 bound spell In 2000-2999 = +6 power dices max, 2 bound spells Etc, with a bound spell of power 5 or less count as 1, and a bound spell of power 6 or more counts as 2. That way, you still can take as many wizards you want and have as many spells you have, as many batteries you can, but still have a limited number of dices that you generate. That way, you could have few mages that could cast all their spells, or many mages to have many spells to choose from, or have little magic. But even with max magic vs low defense, magic would still made an impact, but not be game turner like it is now. Also, i would have liked 8 or 10 spells per lore, like in the old edition. It is just me, or the spells are always the same ? With 1 Lv4 and 1Lv2, each spell can be on the table. I feel like it's always the same spells that are played, and i miss the variety. |
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My Wants My Haves | |
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| Lightbringer | 29th August 2005 - 10:11 PM Post #9 |
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Chaos git
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For the thing with mages haveing to be near each other to lend dice to work it would almost require that a cabal of mages move around as a unit of its own. Which would of course be very cool in one way, but for some armies it would just not fit, not to mention that it would be suicide. |
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| Blood Vixen | 29th August 2005 - 11:00 PM Post #10 |
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All hail the Age of Skaven
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nobody said youd have to do it and it might also get rid of some of those magechainers (nothing but mages e.g. 6 mages use to cast comet of cassonarda times enough to own you of the high elf equivilant of flames of pheonix of pheonix on every large unit of cost and there goes the neighborhood |
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| Lightbringer | 30th August 2005 - 12:14 AM Post #11 |
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Chaos git
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Well, if they do make such a change they are likly to change how you generate power dice totaly, so I guess there is not much use in speculating. |
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| Madthing | 31st August 2005 - 06:45 AM Post #12 |
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Chieftain
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I'm sort of going off on a tangent here, but I'm wondering if the mechanic that the designers envisaged for the current system is working as they expected. Theoretically, as I see it, you get more casting dice than dispel dice because casting isn't a sure thing, and some dice will get wasted on a spell that fails to cast. Another thing is that they don't want the whole magic phase locked down, where nobody can cast anything. On the other hand, they don't want magic to dominate the entire game, which, to the best of my knowledge, it isn't really, barring extreme situations. Is this working? Are too many spells getting off a turn? The main tweaks as I see it is that extreme situations need to be curtailed without decreasing the average effectiveness of magic, which is rather tricky; and the fact that you basically need to take a mage, and usually a scroll caddy. Perhaps a blanket restriction on the number of magic levels or power dice might work, but I'm not sure, and it doesn't solve the scroll caddy problem. |
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| Grey seer White Paw | 14th September 2005 - 01:15 PM Post #13 |
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Warlord of 7th Tactics!
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I feel that extra dispel is needed. i mean persolly i end up taking wizzards just so i can dispel the enemys magic, for example in 2k emp my mate has a lvl four and two lvl twos. to combat this i take a we and a seer, leting him get maybe two spells off for free each turn, now i see this as wrong, why should i have to take mages just cos me opponent has them. i think each army should generat more per points so in a 1k 2; 2k 4; 3k 6 and so on, this way i wouldnt have to take a seer in 2k vs emp to avoid being rosted by magic, as id have 4 normally plus the engineers one. making it alot easier to dispel magic, but at the same time allows my opponent a gd chance of breaking through if he decideds to go magic heavy. wat ya think? |
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GW, sucking the fun out of the hobby since 1999. Never worry. Worst case scenario you die, and then there was no point worrying anyways. Skaven repaint overhaul Number 5! (2/5th complete) | |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 14th September 2005 - 03:31 PM Post #14 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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At a basic level, I agree with you. Nobody should be forced to take wizards instead of other characters just to defend against magic. On the other hand, even now you're never forced to take a grey seer just for defence. A grey seer is hardly better than a warlock at dispelling. If you really don't want magic, just take an unquipped warlock with a couple of dispel scrolls. If you want a decent offensive and defensive magic phase, take warlock twins with some scrolls and the stormdaemon. Alternatively, use assassination tactics to kill his wizards rather than invest heavily in mages of your own. There's no need to fight fire with fire. Instead of that 95 point scroll caddy you could also take a sizable unit of gutter runners with no goal but kill his mages, even if they all die in the process. Such suicide commandos stand a fairly good chance of pulling this off. Finally, most magic really isn't all that dangerous. Your opponent plays empire? Let me guess, he uses heavens magic. That means he'll kill your weapon teams with lightning spells. Well, nothing you can do about it. Even with strong magic of your own you won't stop all the lightning spells. But against blocks of 25-30 clanrats, those lightning bolts aren't really going to do all that much. So, most of your army ought to do just fine if you can dispel the comets. A single scroll caddy probably will be able to do so for the first half of the game. (try to have some mages killed before the second half.) Now, his mages will still cause damage to your army, but most likely not enough to justify the 500+ points he spend on them... you only spend a 100 points on your caddy, so you'll probably come out on top. |
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| Lightbringer | 14th September 2005 - 05:51 PM Post #15 |
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Chaos git
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I see no problem that you hav to take a wizard to defend against magic, instead I would see it as moronic if you did not have to. Why should I spend points on magic if you can defend against it without spending points on it? Magic is a phase of the game just as shooting. If you take an army that can't take shooting, then you are going to get hurt in the shooting phase, if you take an army that can't defend against magic, then you will get hurt in the magic phase. The only real problem I see now is that you can go to far. You can get 20+ powerdices in some 2000p armies, and thats just silly. But then again, you can mage gunline armies like that to. So I don't think they need to change things much, just cap them a bit. |
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