| Stormvermin, how to use them? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 7th August 2005 - 08:10 AM (1,048 Views) | |
| Tilara | 8th August 2005 - 06:41 AM Post #16 |
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Grey Seer
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Which is exactly why I never field them. They're just not good enough to be counted as elite troops and hardly outperform clanrats so rarely make it onto the roster. Its really a shame they don't work a bit better for a 0-1 unit. About their only saving grace is being able to take a magic banner, but there's just not a lot of good banners to choose from. |
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| D99 | 8th August 2005 - 07:41 PM Post #17 |
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Stormvermin
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Alright.. lets try this again. A lot of people try to use them as a flanking unit, I do not want to use them that way. I do see the way that they can tear up someone flank, but using them this way goes against the feeling that I believe stormvermin have, which is too be a main assault unit. After reading the posts where people talked about how to use them as a unit like clanrats, I think the best way that I will attempt to use them is in a unit of 25-30, with a chieften in it. (As I prefer to use a Grey Seer) Also, using them as a ten man unit of bell pushers just takes away from the great fluff (some of the best fluff IMO) about the fearsome Stormvermin. So I could never use them as bell pushers, unless it was in a big unit. |
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| General Vorg | 8th August 2005 - 11:12 PM Post #18 |
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Keeper of the Squeeks and the Temple
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welll, i dont think theres any other way 2 use em D99, so dont stress urself, just dont place them on the battlefeild ... i would though... the fluff... oh the fluff *seizure* squeeks |
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| Warlord Vask Warpskull | 9th August 2005 - 01:03 AM Post #19 |
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Unregistered
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<Feeling stupid> I've never thought about using my Stormvermin with a hw and shield! That's brilliant! Well, I suppose you should switch your weapon choice depending on who you're fighting. For example, my gaming league has lots of VCs and other skaven. Personally, I'd prefer to use the hw and shield, simply because the 3+ save is likely (not counting the whim of the Horned Rat) to bounce off any rank-and-file that doesn't have a great weapon, flail or firearm. Lots of people underestimate the skaven and their capabilities. Passing lots of armour saves in CC will help to demoralize or offset your enemy. And that's when the game is yours. <Chitter, chitter> |
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| Madthing | 9th August 2005 - 06:11 AM Post #20 |
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Chieftain
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Well, there's always the Rattsu way... From what I've gathered from her posts, she sticks a Warlord, a BSB and more into an unbelievably huge Stormvermin unit and charges it straight into the centre of the enemy lines. Of course, it seems like she usually plays 3000 point games... I can't quite remember the combo, but there's also the +7 combat resolution setup that is insanely expensive. You get the Banner of the Swarm and the Warbanner, one on your BSB and the other with the Stormvermin, and so long as you outnumber your enemy, you have +7 combat resolution before you even fight: +3 ranks +2 outnumber (with Banner of the Swarm) +1 standard +1 Warbanner Most of these things are outrageously expensive, and most people think that Stormvermin are overcosted. Personally, I think it's got more to do with halberds being both rather expensive and not very useful than anything else. |
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| Sebrent | 9th August 2005 - 07:25 PM Post #21 |
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I like to have at least 1 of everything for fluff and tactical reasons (everything has its uses). Unlike many who see Stormvermin as a bad choice, I compare them to the other "halberdiers" other armies have. Dark Elves >>> Black Guard: These halberd wielding units are the same S and T as stormvermin, get +1WS, +1 I, and +1 Ld (after *Strength in Numbers*) and are twice the cost of Stormvermin. They use Hatred and are Stubborn, but for crazy Grey Seers with bells, we have this too and that still doesn't make them being twice the cost any better than our Stormvermin. Black Guard are 0-1 just like Stormvermin but take up a Rare slot. Our Stormvermin don't take up those coveted Rare slots. Bretonnia >>> Men-at-arms: These halberd wielding units are 3 pts less than our Stormvermin, but they have -1M, -2WS, -2I, and -3Ld (after *Strength in Numbers*). They come with their shields already equipped, but they don't get the heavy armor we do, and the only way to improve their leadership is to babysit them with knights. Stormvermin don't need to be babysat. Men-at-arms can't take a magic standard either. Empire >>> Halberdiers: These men cost 2 pts less than our Stormvermin. However, they have -1M, -1 WS, -2I, and -1Ld (after *Strength in Numbers*). They also don't get the heavy armour our Stormvermin wear so proudly. Lizardmen >>> Temple Guard: These scaly halberd wielding lizards are more than twice the cost of our Stormvermin. They are -1M, +1S, +1T, -3I, +1A compared to our Stormvermin. To keep them from being a complete ripoff compared to our Stormvermin, they are Cold Blooded as well as Stubborn IF they are with a Slann who MUST join them. High Elves >>> Pheonix Guard: These pasty halberdiers are 1 pt short of twice the cost of our Stormvermin. For this they get +1WS, +1I, and +1Ld (after *Strength in Numbers*) compared to our Stormvermin. They do cause fear however, but at their point cost I doubt they will outnumber Stormvermin, and our Ld isn't to be scoffed at due to *Strength in Numbers*. Also, these Pheonix Guard don't even have the option of taking a shield and are limited to a very cheap magic standard. Stormvermin vs Black Guard: toe to toe, the Black Guard should kill the Stormvermin due to their superiority. However, due to their considerably higher points cost, your Stormvermin will be supported against these evil elves by ranged attacks, outnumbering, flank charge(s), and/or a powerful character. Stormvermin vs Men-at-arms: toe to toe, Stormvermin will kill Men-at-arms with ease. They have superior armaments, superior stats, and aren't much more expensive so being outnumbered by the Men-at-arms or the Men-at-arms being supported (support units in Brettonia <scoff> there aren't many) and the small difference in points costs won't allow them many extra points over you to field support. Not to mention our initiative will always allow us to strike before them. Stormvermin vs Empire Halberdiers: once again, Stormvermin would win here. Stormvermin have superior armaments, superior stats, and aren't much more expensive so outnumbering shouldn't be much of a problem. The empire could use that money to shoot you or field detachments to support their halberdiers, but the small difference in these points costs won't allow them to field that much to support themselves. Not to mention our initiative will always allow us to strike before them. Stormvermin vs Temple Guard: toe to toe, Stormvermin will get the crap kicked out of them by these wicked lizards. However, these lizard are more expensive than the Black Guard the Dark Elves can field and don't benefit from hatred or stubborn (though they are cold-blooded). Thus, you will have plenty of extra points over them to field support, outnumber, etc. etc. (see "vs Black Guard"). Stormvermin vs Pheonix Guard: barely cheaper than the Black Guard of the Dark Elves and with only slightly superior stats to those of our Stormvermin, these Elves' only true saving grace is that they cause fear which can be overcome easily with Skaven items, leadership, and/or magic. With that out of the way, and the large difference in points costs between these two units, you can easily overcome these Elves with Stormvermin plus support that you can easily fund for the same cost the High Elf general paid for just his Pheonix Guard. The benefit of halberds is to increase your race's strength without having the burden of striking last. This allows for more rolls to wound and hinders your opponent's armour saves. We are Skaven, and thus our halberd unit, just like the rest of our army, isn't self-sufficient. Everything in our army works together to support one another. That is one of the beauties of our units being so cheap ... we can afford to pay the points costs for support. So take another look at your stormvermin. Wouldn't they be nice for taking out some Dwarfs in heavy armour with shields & hand weapons? Couldn't they help get a lucky hit on that unit with a character in it? Are they not a worthy enough unit for the presence of your army's general? I think so. Make your stormvermin earn their right to your clan's breeders! Take them to battle! |
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| D99 | 9th August 2005 - 10:07 PM Post #22 |
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Stormvermin
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Wow, Thanks for a great read. When you compare them to most of the other halberd units, they seem superior to most of them. (Only one is halberdiers for Empire, which will also have lots of shooting to kill our stormvermin) I'm not sure what I want to make out of it though, since I have never seen anyone use any of those units in the first place anyway. ![]() Sigh, Halberds need something. [size0]Skaskrit Venomclaw: I've removed your quote... it was cluttering up the thread to no purpose. Quoting is very useful when threads get confusing... but unnecessary when you're replying to the post directly above you. |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 10th August 2005 - 09:49 AM Post #23 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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You both have a point. Stormvermin aren't that bad compared to other halberdiers, but halberdiers just suck on general principle. The problem is that 6th edition made both greatweapons and handweapons more powerful, so the poor old halberd is now stuck in the middle with little to recommend itself. (in 5th edition, you didn't get a armour save bonus for using handweapon and shield, and greatweapons would strike last even on the charge.) |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| Sebrent | 10th August 2005 - 03:04 PM Post #24 |
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Aye, the hand weapon & shield have been buffed up to be better in this edition, but I personally am not a fan of Great Weapons for Skaven. One of our advantages over everything non-elven is our initiative. We are meant to strike first. When you strike first, you reduce the number of attacks they get back. That is the concept behind using the Stormvermin. If you use the halberds and attack first, killing 3 enemy soldiers, then that regiment with a 5 wide rank will only get 2 attacks back at you (P.71 in the Big Red Book) as opposed to using hand weapons & shields and only killing 1 enemy, allowing them to attack back with 4. Think of it this way: Halberd = +1 to wound, -1 to enemy armour save Hand Weapon & Shield = +1 to your armour save Great Weapon = +2 to wound, -2 to enemy armour save, but strike last (possibly not getting in any attacks if they kill the same number as you have in your front rank ... not counting if you charge)...*NOTE: Skaven regiments don't get great weapons* |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 10th August 2005 - 07:31 PM Post #25 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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Not quite... Handweapon shield; +2 to your armour save in combat, +1 against shooting. 1 point. Halberd; +1 to wound, -1 armour save on enemy, 2 points Great Weapon; +2 to wound, -2 enemy armour save, strike last except on the charge, 2 points. Purely rules-wise, the halberd wouldn't be worse than the handweapon shield combo. It's the great expense that makes it the lesser choice. And as for getting fewer attacks in return thanks to the halberd striking first with high strength... if you do the math, you'll see the difference isn't that great most of the time. Let's pit 25 stormvermin against 25 Empire Swordsmen. The stormvermin strike first with halberds, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, and allowing the swordsmen a 5+ armour save. If the stormvermin are deployed 5x5 and don't have a champion, that will result in 1 casualty on average. (1.1, really.) Now, if they use handweapons and shields, they would inflict 0.6 casualty. Half a casualty less, not that impressive. If you take into account the return blows, the shields will save 0.3 stormvermin extra. So all in all, the benefit from the halberds is minimal. Not worth the extra points you pay for the halberds. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| D99 | 10th August 2005 - 08:46 PM Post #26 |
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Stormvermin
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I've found the same things that you have Skaskrit Venomclaw, it seems that if I am fighting troops that have low armor but are revolved around putting out a lot of attacks, stormvermin do well since the halberds cut down a lot real fast, but against anything with armor, suddenly my elite rats are getting beaten down by normal troops. I don't know, I still love my Stormvermin all the same, Ill just have to find the big thing that makes them work. |
| Squeek! | |
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| Sebrent | 10th August 2005 - 10:49 PM Post #27 |
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D99, you just mentioned one use for your stormvermin for ... "troops that have low armor but are revolved around putting out a lot of attacks." It's very nice when against enemies like Dwarf Slayers as you aren't going to get past those slayers with combat resolution so you have to kill them. I also find stormvermin very useful against the undead as WS2 vs WS4 is great, plus you're killing more of them with the halberds, thus making your opponent have to summon more to keep them in the game. Also, against enemies who use Great Weapons, it is a lot more useful to be able to kill them than it is to try to have an armour save ... as your armour save is shot when the great weapons hit you. Stormvermin are worth it, you just have to learn how to use them ... and learning can hurt
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----Skaven Mathhammer ---- ![]()
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 11th August 2005 - 06:10 PM Post #28 |
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Ex-Councilrat
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I've found that the best undead-killers are Clanrats with spears. Combats against the undead always last multiple rounds, so those extra attacks make all the difference. (plague monks are even better, of course. But also much more expensive.) Stormvermin, on the other hand, aren't all that good in this case. Their high weaponskill is irrelevant. Their high initiative is irrelevant. And in smaller units, they're more vulnerable to auto-breaking. But against troops with greatweapons the halberds can indeed help. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |
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| Snagrit | 13th August 2005 - 06:53 AM Post #29 |
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Crazy Rat
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Well i wouldent no i use Eshin and Pestalince but i say you use them as a head on charge unit which gives your clanrats the chance to get ze flank Charge hope i helped Snagrit!!!!! |
| Lets play Kill-Kill!!! U go Hide and i will come and assassinate U! | |
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| Grey seer White Paw | 15th August 2005 - 08:36 PM Post #30 |
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Warlord of 7th Tactics!
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Well that goes without saying, as any skaven unit has difficulties winning without a surport unit. I think there best use is physcophisical. my opponent knows they have a good save in combat, and knows that they have all the usual andvantages of skaven but with armour, so he will shhot and magic em to death, as well as send every hard unit their way. This is fine with me, coss as he does this it means me we and grey seer that are inthe two u units of clannies are free to go about doing what they want. hell waste the first few turns pummeling them to find ive grabbed all the table quarters and are in the pefect position to flank charge his units that ave just spent forever destroying me stormvermin. lol, yes there expensive but they also scare the crap out of ur opponent, and of course its fluffy |
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GW, sucking the fun out of the hobby since 1999. Never worry. Worst case scenario you die, and then there was no point worrying anyways. Skaven repaint overhaul Number 5! (2/5th complete) | |
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