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Ratling Guns use black powder?
Topic Started: 4th July 2005 - 01:23 AM (653 Views)
AwesomeBach
Clanrat
I recently started a campaign with some friends using the Lustria special rules. There is a rule that can have affects on weapons that fire with black powder. Now, I was not worried as I was sure that most Skaven shooting was warpstone-powered, but much to my suprise, the rule said that things such as ratling guns and jezzails are included in the list of black powder weapons. (I was especially mad because no one told me until I had already made my list, and started battling). Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe these weapons use black powder. Any insight on this?

This rule is probably just to balance all the armies, but I think it is a grave injustice to claim Skaven using black powder.
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

Im almost certain they dont use black powder for rattling guns. They (along with all skaven weapons) are waprstone powered. Us Skaven are too smart to use black powder guns!

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Tilara
Grey Seer
I've never considered skaven to use blackpowder. A dangerous mix of warpstone, yes, but not blackpowder. The 5th edition book might have more lore on the warplock jezzail.. I really need to get a new copy of that book to replace the one I lost. The 6th edition book has almost no story in it.

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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

*nods*... if the rules say so, then the rules say so.

Skaven indeed do not use blackpowder as in the way of man-things do. Though, every handgun and/or pistol needs a small ignition (gunpowder) to actually get the bullet firing away. Rain is in this matter quite a spoiler, since wet powder doesn't really ignite. That's what made handguns and the likes of that so notorious several hundred years ago, since they sometimes failed at the VERY wrong moments.

This is all basic stuff on the workings of guns, so if anyone knows better then it'll be so. But if you put what I just wrote into the warhammer world, then you'd see that the warplock jezzails and warplock pistols needs such an ignition as well.

You are absolutely right that we don't use blackpowder (although SkavenAde might be an exception on that one ;) ), but the term blackpowder is something that is combined with all sorts of guns. IMHO, they should have called it gunpowder but then some might not understand what would or wouldn't fall under that list and so they would have to name ALL the weapons in that category...

Hope this answered it.

Greetz
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Tilara
Grey Seer
Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
Jul 3 2005, 11:55 PM
Though, every handgun and/or pistol needs a small ignition (gunpowder) to actually get the bullet firing away.

This is all basic stuff on the workings of guns, so if anyone knows better then it'll be so. But if you put what I just wrote into the warhammer world, then you'd see that the warplock jezzails and warplock pistols needs such an ignition as well.

Well, if warpstone gas is/was explosive you really wouldn't need any powder. It could operate no different than an internal combustion engine. A fuel-air mixture is in the chamber, hole connects the chamber to where the flashpan would be, and the jezzail's lock hold a shard of warpstone that hits a striking plate tossing sparks into the pan, igniting the vapor, and out goes the projectile.
In fact, being clever little rats they could probably even incorperate an internal striking mechanism similar to a sparkplug to do away with the lock and pan. Perhaps even pump a compressed fuel-air mixture into the ignition chamber for higher muzzle velocities.

But, thus is the Warhammer world. Skaven's lore is so different than any other race in the world they just get wadded up into the universal ruleset to avoid tons of exceptions. For example, I think about this campaign game that's going at the local store where one of the game events is "Magic Flux"... in every magic phase you roll all your dice (power or dispell) and any results of 1 gives the die to the opponent. How is my opponent going to draw power out of the warp collector on my warlock's back?
Another example is the campaign rules in the book itself with regards to territories providing units. Why would the Skaven draw troops from rivers, forests, cities, and such?
The rules are there just to keep some form of balance, not always to properly reflect the lore of the game. I would, however, strongly object if they called the Warplightning cannon a blackpowder weapon as it doesn't even fire a projectile.
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shlominus
Stormvermin
actually i am fairly sure that jezzails and ratlings use a mixture of blackpowder/warpstone/other stuff to fire, which would be effected by dampness (for example, the lord of rain spell).

the bullets are magical because of the added warpstone, but the shooting mechanism remains the same as for the other races gunpowder weapons.

take a look at your jezzail models, you can clearly see a pretty normal firing mechanism. itīs a bit harder for ratlings, but i canīt think of any other explanation.

unless you say "itīs magic!", which sucks. skryre are engineers, not mages. they improve more, invent less, which would make it unlikely for them to think of a completely new thing when something works in the first place.
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Tilara
Grey Seer
shlominus
Jul 4 2005, 06:25 AM
take a look at your jezzail models, you can clearly see a pretty normal firing mechanism. itīs a bit harder for ratlings, but i canīt think of any other explanation

I use the 5th edition "shoulder cannon" jezzails, thx! I think they look much more "over the top" in typical skaven style rather than just some peashooter rifle.
Those look like they've got a fully enclosed mechanical firing system.
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shlominus
Stormvermin
Quote:
 
the 5th edition "shoulder cannon" jezzails


bah, those were shitty models. they donīt count. ;)
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

Hush, hush... they're secret Hrud (40k) blasters!!! ;)

I still have those too and I think those models look quite nice. Those are truely jezzails, opposed to the muskets you see in the 6th ed. models!

Greetz
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Bassik Dwarveripper
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I have the old jezzails, and I think they're fantastic!
They're very detailed, more so then the 6th edition ones. Especially the firing mechanism :wub:
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shlominus
Stormvermin
in a tourney iīm playing tomorrow there will be a special scenario including rainy weather.

result gunpowder weapons only shoot on 3+. that will include ratlings and jezzails. you guys think i should mention the firing mechanism bassik loves so much? :P
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'Ttakquick
Grey Seer
I'm more shocked at the mechanical inclination Ti has, Bassik your a lucky guy!
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scrivener
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*toot*

Ermm... that's Tilara, he's a veteran skaven player hereabouts. As far as I know he isn't married to Bassik. :P Tir-sah is er... another person entirely....

As far as I can figure out, skaven still employ flintlock-type mechanisms (as it's called warplock, presumably with a warpstone instead of flint) for jezzails and pistols. Which implies powder of some sort, and so dampness will still prevent effective ignition from sparks.

The ratling gun will still use the same powder. The only difference is that instead of warplock it function via a hand crank, which is how gatling guns work anyway. My assumption is that in true skaven fashion the "black" powder used is a derivative of finely-powdered warpstone.

The magic is only from the bullets being warpstone. And yep, the rules expressly list ratlings and jezzails under weps affected by rain.


Warning, rambling alert!!
Looking at the warpgas theory, the problem with that would be keeping the gas in the chamber while there's a hole leading to the pan. Like a butane lighter, you'd need a mechanism that will seal the hole in the inactive position. The problem with this would be that, once the hole is released and the spark made, gas will automatically escape through the hole, ignition will occur on top of the pan, as the fire is going in the gas is going out, and that would reduce the explosive power of igniting gas substantially. Also attempting to reload gas is a lot harder than simple powder. Anyone here who has tried to refill a butane lighter can testify :D The sparkplug theory may work, but as we know they've got warplocks.
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Tilara
Grey Seer
scrivener
Jul 23 2005, 09:33 AM
Warning, rambling alert!!
Looking at the warpgas theory, the problem with that would be keeping the gas in the chamber while there's a hole leading to the pan. Like a butane lighter, you'd need a mechanism that will seal the hole in the inactive position. The problem with this would be that, once the hole is released and the spark made, gas will automatically escape through the hole, ignition will occur on top of the pan, as the fire is going in the gas is going out, and that would reduce the explosive power of igniting gas substantially. Also attempting to reload gas is a lot harder than simple powder.

Oh, I don't know about that. (don't try this at home, get parental supervision, etc) As I kid I used to make "Polish Cannons" from V8 cans and duct tape. Spray some lighter fluid down the muzzel, jam in a tennis ball, and you've got a gas in the ignition chamber. Yes, some 'leaks out' of the little hole but there's still more than enough inside to ignite. You can't sit and wait all day to put a spark to the hole, but you've got some time.
I have no idea how fast a warpstone shard would fire or what sort of expansion properties a 'warpstone gas' would have when ignited, but I'd say you could make an arguement for them not being black powder if the rules didn't specificly mention them.
Another argument against the 'blackpowder' thing would be, "Why are jezzails "Reliable" instead of safe?". Obviously, there's something else going on there if the guns can detonate and normal pistols and rifles cant.
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Tilara
Grey Seer
Read an interesting tidbit...

Skaven Army book - Pg72
 
The Skryre weapon team aimed their multi-barreled gun at the Dwarfs and activated the warpstone gas pump that powered the wierd machine. The weapon's first burst cut a red swathe through the Dwarfs, slowing their advance. The Skryre engineers cackled maniacally, turning wildly on the crank that raised the rate of fire of the machine to augment the already impressive rain of death.

etc... this part of the story is talking about a ratling gun being fired, there's a little more about it before and after that snip. No gunpowder, just warpstone gas pump and a crank.

Of course, if a printed rule says "including ratling guns and jezzails"... then you need to follow it. On the other hand, if people are simply trying to argue how skryre device is built, there's enough evidance to support a non-gunpowder theory.
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