Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Do you take standards for your ClanRats?; +1CR vs. 100 VPts
Topic Started: 14th March 2005 - 10:48 PM (637 Views)
Enginseer Itchn'Skratch
Clanrat
In a recent battle, the only reason my opponent got a solid victory was because of a few clanrat banners that added up to around 400 Victory Points in the end. I've always put standards in my clanrat units, but now this has me wondering if it's worth it.

A standard costs 10 points and gives +1 Combat Resolution. But what I didn't know until I started playing with Victory Points is that the enemy captures your standards whenever you break from combat and recieves 100 VPs for every standard they retain at the end of the battle. I know the clanrats need all the help they can get, but eventually I expect them to die, and giving my opponent 100 victory points per unit for a temporary +1 CR dosen't seem worth it...

What do you guys think?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Morkskittar
Member Avatar
The Tunnel's Resident Rodent Ecologist

Well, I have never had that problem as my Clanrats tend to fight hard...

And I would still five it to them, as Clanrats really need that +1 to combat resolution...
The Eldritch Wastes: A Post-Lovecraftian Online Serial Novel (Author Website)
Pub Fight Deaths: 334. Pillz and Pyllz are by Morkskittar.
Posted Image
Complete Works of Morkskittar / You Have Just Lost the Game 'zodi
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Skaskrit Venomclaw
Member Avatar
Ex-Councilrat

As I've stated in the other tread, always take banners for your clanrats.

The clanrats are your main combat units. They are not sacrificial, they are not supposed to die. Basing a battle plan around the fact you expect to lose everything in your army is not good.

You should also note that losing a fight does not always mean the banner gets captured. If you stop the enemy from pursuing you, the banner simply is lost. You can do this by having multiple units in a fight. If one breaks, the enemy still can't pursue. Alternatively, place units to threaten the enemy flanks should he win and pursue. That will make him restrain pursuit.

Best of all, don't engage in combats with your clanrats you don't expect to win.


Oh, and a final reason to take standards: it's in character. What army would march to war without banners, just so the enemy can't capture them?
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verminous Fang
Member Avatar


Quote:
 
But what I didn't know until I started playing with Victory Points is that the enemy captures your standards whenever you break from combat and recieves 100 VPs for every standard they retain at the end of the battle.


This is mostly right. They do have to chase your unit to capture a standard (they don't have to catch you), and they will lose all standards (yes, including yours) if you break them and catch them, or destroy them in close combat (in the case of undead/deamons).

Also, they only get the points for those standards if they are alive and not fleeing at the end of the game (so if they flee off the table or break or flee due to missile/magic on turn 6, they don't get those points).
Go forth my brethren, that we shall nibble at the roots of the old world!

We are the rats in the shadows. We hold the blades of corruption, aimed at the very heart of the Old World. We are The Council of Thirteen.

Second place in the UnderEmpire painting competition!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SingTheScreams
Member Avatar
Call me Sings

i ALWAYS take them. +1CR means you wont run as often, meaning they won't get the VP in the first place. it's the difference between losing and winning a combat, usually.
Posted Image
arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lateralis
Unregistered

Totally, go for the "big 5"

-Standard
-3 ranks
-outnumber

=5 CR
Quote Post Goto Top
 
jarbo
Chieftain
without 5 CR its almost impossible for a group of clanrats to win combat, sure theres a chance of giveing 100 vp at the end but thats a whole lot worse then all groups of clanrats breaking and getting rundown.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brownmccoy
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
I use mine with standards, and I've been doing very good with my skaven (lost 3 out of 8 games, 1 with a really bad 2k list to get somebody ready for conflict), and my clanrats have eliminated soo many units, all because of the standard. You would not believe how many times I beat the opponent by 1cr. Also... I did not know about the unit had to be alive to keep the standard.
Posted Image
Sig made by Kyoji of Xen of Onslaught
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pantzdanz12
Unregistered

Yeah, as they all said, the standard is definitely worth it. On paper, it looks like spending 10 points, and losing an additional 100 VP's for it getting captured is a bad thing. In reality, as another poster said, you should really not be planning your list, thinking that your units of Clanrats will break. If your large blocks of Clanrats break from combat, there goes the game right there. The only other unit Skaven has that can hold its own in combat, and use CR to break the opponent, is Stormvermin, and you really can't field a lot of them. So do everything you can to keep your Clanrat units big and scary. Oftenttimes I'll field a BSB with the Sacred Standard just to give my 30-rat Clanrat units some extra punch. It's always good to see the look on your opponent's face when he realizes your Clanrats cause Fear. Also, as some of the other posters said, if you have multiple units in the combat, you effectively kill any attempt he could make at taking the banner.
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Enginseer Itchn'Skratch
Clanrat
Thanks for the tips - it looks like this won't be as big a liability as thought.

BTW - I didn't mean to say that I go into battle expecting all my clanrat units to die, but rather that if I loose one or a few, the rest of them keep on coming. Since we don't field the mega-troops that some armies can, they have to cleave through each on of ours while the rest keep fighting - so you expect to loose a few - to shooting, to magic, to get an enemy unit lined up for a nasty flank charge or something - but you still have the rest. My concern was that 100 extra VPs effectively doubles the value of a defeated clanrat unit - yeah, a 20 rat unit with no commend, etc - but you get my point.

Still, it sounds like the collective experience out there points toward this not being too big a threat - and yes, I'd much rather be taking the banners anyhow!

Thanks for the advice guys.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Decker_cky
Member Avatar
Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
just remember, you need any CR at all with clanrats to succeed. They're very average troops, so they won't kill very much. Those few bits of CR are needed to beat most opponents.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Duskrunner
Unregistered

Here is a question to tack onto the subject.

Do you guys take the Battle Banner and/ or Banner of the Swarm in your units to help icrease the chances of a higher CR?

Is it worth taking a Clawleader in the units as well?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Decker_cky
Member Avatar
Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
no, since clanrats can't take magic standards :o

only ways to get a magic standards with skaven are a BSB, plague monks and stormvermin. While those standards are good ideas for the elite units, you'd be smarter to spend the points making a BSB who can kill rather than giving him one of those standards.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
hakoMike
Member Avatar
More grey every day.
Interesting. For the 25 points, I thought the war banner would be a pretty good deal. It's only 5 points more than the banner of the swarm and it guarantees an extra point of cr (rather than only getting it on outnumber.) By your post Decker I'm assuming you attach the bsb to a unit, but rely on 50 pts worth of stuff to get (theoretically) more than 1 extra cr by just killing more enemies. What magic standards would you ever take with the bsb? Just storm banner or sacred standard becasue of the higher cost? Or none at all?

Again, I'll qualify by saying that I've never played yet, but I assumed I would equip the bsb with some standard... say, sacred standard of the horned rat, leave him unattached at the beginning, but then attach him to whatever unit seemed best as the battle progressed. Does anyone do this, or is it merely a new player mistake?
So old. So so old.
My CMON Gallery
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Decker_cky
Member Avatar
Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
well, I usually use the BSB for the Sacred Standard and/or for the reroll ability. If I'm not using the Sacred Standard, I want to keep him alive, so I give him a protective item. After that, my next concern is making him earn a little more for himself by killing more.

Could you expect any less from me though? I'm used to playing tzeentch beasts where my BSB is a L2 wizard :P
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Skaven Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply