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Kickstarting the process: The First UA Entry; "The Ratlingcopter" Discussion Thread
Topic Started: 20th December 2004 - 09:59 PM (541 Views)
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Retired fat dude

This is the most recent iteration of the Ratlingcopter to be entered into the Underempire Approved system for discussion and playtesting:

Mutator
Dec 13 2004, 09:24 PM
Loremaster Journal
 
As the defenders fell back from the walls to combat this threat, a group of strange, warpstone-powered aircraft made from crashed Dwarfen Gyrocopters raked the walls with Ratling Guns. Though all of these flying machines eventually crashed or were destroyed, the aerial assault planned by Verminous Fang certainly contributed to the castle’s fall.


VERSION 1.4

Ratlingcopter (cf Gyrocopter, Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs, p17)

100 Points. Rare Choice.

M-, WS-, BS-, S-, T4, W3, I-, A-, Ld5

Unit Strength
The ratlingcopter is a flyer with a US of 1, but is too large a model to be subject to the skitterleap spell.

Base size The ratlingcopter uses a 40 x 40 mm (ogre-class) base size.

Flying Machine
The ratlingcopter can fly, as described on p106 of the Warhammer Rules. Due to the requirement to husband the warpsteam pressure to power the ratling gun, the ratlingcopter always lands between each movement. The ratlingcopter cannot land in difficult terrain, onto obstacles, or anywhere else which consititutes any sort of movement penalty. If it cant fly for any reason, it cant move. If it has to flee for any reason when it cant fly then it counts as destroyed without crashing, and is removed from the table. Note that the ratlingcopter does not benefit from the skaven +1 to flee moves, and thus always flees 3D6.

Ratling Gun.
The ratling gun works as described on p27 of Warhammer Armies: Skaven, except that it can move and shoot, and uses the misfire table below:

Double 1’s or 2s: “Wrong Valve!” The pilot opened a control valve instead of gun valve, causing a burst of power to the unsteered machine. The ratlingcopter flies 4D6 inches in a random direction as determined by the scatter die, and ends the move facing in that direction. If this move causes the ratlingcopter to land on or in base contact with models from either side, forests, obstacles or difficult/very difficult terrain then backtrack along it's path until a clear space to land is found. If none is found along that path then the gun merely malfunctons and does not shoot. Just turn the ratlingcopter to face the direction indicated by the scatter die.

Double 3’s or 4’s: “Too much pressure!” Excess warpsteam buildup causes the ratlingcopter to scatter, as described for a double 1’s or 2s, above, except it will fire in the direction it ends up facing, hitting the first unit in it’s path, friend or foe.

Double 5’s or 6’s: “Boom!!” The ratlingcopter explodes due to excessive pressure caused by a malfunction in the warpsteam vessel. It is assumed to have crashed at that location. Place the large template and resolve casualties as described below. The ratlingcopter is, of course, destroyed.

Agoraphobic:
Skaven are unused to wide, open spaces and a distinct lack of solid earth beneath their feet (or indeed, above their heads). Unlike the insane bravery displayed by skaven engineers on other (ground-based) skryre war machines, this fear of open spaces makes the crew prone to take fright at the slightest threat. The ratlingcopter may not charge, even if frenzied or subject to any other movement beyond their control. The ratlingcopter must choose flee as a charge reaction. Furthermore, any ratlingcopter in base contact with any enemy models, for whatever reason (such as being pursued in to) will panic, and lose control of their machine causing it to crash. Resolve the crash immediately, as described below, when an enemy makes base contact. The distance and direction of the scatter is resolved from the current position of the ratlingcopter after the enemy is determined to have contacted them but before the enemy unit is moved.

Cannibalised from Parts
Ratlingcopters are not constructed by Clan Skryre in their laboratories or factories, but are created on the battlefield by individual engineers from crashed gyrocopters and all available ratling gun parts. A skaven army containing one or more ratlingcopters may not field any other ratling guns.

Damage to Ratlingcopters:
Ratlingcopters are unlikely to suffer wounds in combat, as they are assumed to have fled or crashed before base contact has occurred. However, they are vulnerable to wounds from ranged attacks. It is an inherently unstable machine, which suffers consequences as it is damaged. Each wound it suffers adds one to the number on the misfire chart (until it sustains it’s third and final wound, at which point it immediately crashes). A gyrocopter wounded by an attack of S7 or more will automatically crash.

Crashes:
A ratlingcopter crashes when the machine is destroyed, circumstances dictate that it has engaged in base contact with the enemy, or from a severe ratling gun misfire. Except where noted above, the ratlingcopter always scatters 4D6 in a random direction determined by the scatter die. Unlike a dwarf gyrocopter, a ratlingcopter which rolls a ‘hit’ on the scatter die does not move, and is simply exploded on the spot. Ratlingcopter explosions not only kill the crew and spread fragments of the machine and whirling rotors over a large portion of the landscape, but they are accompanied by a lethal cloud of escaping warpstone steam. The explosion is resolved using the large (5”) template, where all targets fully under the template suffer a S5 hit, with armour saves at -3, and models partially under the template are hit on a 4+. This explosion counts as magical, and as such effects ethereals and negates daemonic saves.


What needs to be done before the actual on-the-table playtesting?

(i) The "no ratling guns" bit is a source of contention. Discuss whether this would totally preclude your using one or more ratlingcopters in your army, and contrast this with the effects of allowing rattlers to be fielded in conjunction with the 'copter. Dont forget to view from your opponent's POV too. Talk to them if necessary and report back here.

(ii) Psychology is another matter for discussion. My personal view is that it should be the major weakness of the machine, second only to it's vulnerability to ranged attacks, and that players wuld conter this by shielding and positioning. Others think that renders it too weak for the cost. Discuss.

(iii) Crash rules need to be cleaned and made more elegant/succinct, including those resulting from possible misfires.

(iv) Duplication of other rules need to be cleaned, so that the entry is a short and as "user-friendly" as possible.

(v) Add the bit so that if it scatters off the table it counts as having fled.

(vi) Anything else I missed ;)

Once these are sorted we can consider playtesting :)
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Khilkhret Foe-slayer
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I think a simple way to solve the "no ratlingguns" rule is to apply this one instead:

'For every Ratlingcopter you include in your army, three units of Clanrats may not take any attached weapons teams- you may substitute one unit of Stormvermin for one of those units of clanrats.'

there- now, it uses up three weapons teams slots, crippling the number of weapons teams an army can take.

They should NOT be ITP or Unbreakable- they're way up in the air, with nothing around them but a REALLY long fall, and even a FLY would scare them. Personally, I think they should have to take a panic check when they get shot at, even if they don't take a wound, or even dont get hit- "lets get-get out of here, they gonna blow it up!"

a nicer-looking crash rule:
Crashes:
When the ratlingcopter takes its last wound, rolls doulbe 5's or 6's on its Ratling Gun, is caught in Close Combat, or sustains a hit of S7 or higher, it crashes. Except where noted above, the ratlingcopter always scatters 4D6 in a random direction determined by the scatter die. Unlike a dwarf gyrocopter, a ratlingcopter which rolls a ‘hit’ on the scatter die does not move, and is simply detonates on the spot. The explosion itself is fearsome- not only are bits of metal and gears sent scything through the air, but lethal warpstone gas vents into the face and lungs of any caught in the blast. The explosion is resolved using the large (5”) template, where all targets fully under the template suffer a S5 hit with a -3 armor save modifier. Models partially under the template are hit on a 4+. This explosion counts as magical, and as such effects ethereals and negates daemonic saves.
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Mutator
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This is along the lines of the suggestions already received.

I think it may well be the way we go, but I just happen to think it is an inelegant solution. We'll see ;)
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Kill-Kill
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I think you should only be allowed to take one addtiopnal ratling gun. Thyis seems a nice compromise.....
<font color="darkred">Your words are just bloody fallacy,
A house of cards, painted white.
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Personally, I'd find this thing invaluable if I ever converted one. I only use one ratling gun in my 2000 point army in any case, and having a flying model for 40 extra points is a bargain. Yes, I'd expect the thing to die, but the chaos it would cause would be worth it. As would having a 20" move-and-fire ratling gun. I already see every enemy wizard scramble for cover in the biggest wood or unit out there.

However, the "no ratling gun" rule becomes harsher once the point size of your games goes up. This makes the rule weak, i.m.o. There is little drawback to fielding the copter in 1000 point, doable in 2000 points, but very it becomes annoying in 3000 points games and larger. Unless, of course, you'd get access to multiple 'copters, but somehow I doubt many people converting more than one.

Possible alternatives:

Quote:
 
Cannibalised from Parts
Ratlingcopters are not constructed by Clan Skryre in their laboratories or factories, but are created on the battlefield by individual engineers from crashed gyrocopters and all available ratling gun parts.


Quote:
 
Therefore, it becomes much harder to maintain the the other ratling guns in the army.

A skaven army containing one or more ratlingcopters must pay 10 extra points for each normal ratling gun.


Or:

Quote:
 
Because of the part shortage, the other ratling guns in the army are poorly maintained. All non-copter mounted ratling guns suffer a minus one hit penalty on each dice they roll. E.g. a ratling gun rolls 3, 5, 1. It now scores only 6 hits instead of 9. This does not affect misfires.


Or:

Quote:
 
Because of this, the other ratling guns in the army are poorly maintained. All misfires count as one number higher than they actually are. (i.e. a double 2 counts as double 3, double 5 counts as double 6, etc.)
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

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General Vorg
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venomclaws idea is pretty good, but how about is:

Since its hard to have ratling guns when ur using them as ratling copters, for every ratlingcopter in your army, 1 ratling gun must be considered a speical choice

Is that any good? i like it better then venomclaws (no offence) but the final dicision is CO13s... right???

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Ideally the Co13 is presented with a completed package, after it passes the original proposal step (which the RC has), so the specifics of the entry are down to you guys.

I just started the ball rolling and provded some commentary. Talk to Khilkhret, he's organising the playtesting.
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Kill-Kill
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And again nobody reads my idea.... :angry:


<font color="darkred">Your words are just bloody fallacy,
A house of cards, painted white.
Tried to recreate Normandy,
But you made up the reasons to fight</font>

Mik was here! <font color=pink> <-thanks </font>
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Tunnel Rat
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Ok, as much as I like the idea, I have to tell you that this machine, I think, is way too powerful. For one thing its a flying ratling gun. You nullified the weapon's biggest weakness- mobility- and made it a move and shoot, auto-hit weapon that flies 20 inches. Any non-skaven player will laugh at you if you ever try to play it. Well by buddies at least did.

So you reply back that it has a misfire table and if you played it you won't be able to field any ratling guns. The misfire table is pretty much the same as the ratling gun misfire table. It shouldn't be that similar. In fact it should be catastrophic for such a potent weapon. Having only one ratling gun might sound fair but its not. Its still a flying ratling gun. You can still have a number of jezzails, warp fire throwers, and warp cannons in your army.

The skaven are afraid of heights so who would want to fly the machine? I think this itself makes the idea of any flying machine moot. Now maybe that is why it is offered in a rare slot and only the few crazy skaven would fly it (I can only see eshin crazy enough to brave the heights). I still think thats way too often. Maybe add 0-1 unit max and/or maybe count it as two slots. There is one idea that I think is best- make it as a special/unique character. By having one in existence you will have one crazy skaven flying around in one crazy flying contraption... with a ratling gun. Remember that the skaven only found one empire tank, how often do you think they'll be able to find copters in a battlefield?

suggestions:
1) How about lobbing poison wind globes instead of using the ratling gun?
2) How about using the copter but not as a flying machine? The rotors could easily be used to flail around a number of censers. It could be pushed or be warp generated.

I hope I didn't burst too many bubbles. It is just one opinion afterall and I could be way off.
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Kill-Kill
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Quote:
 
Brass Keep has fallen to a deadly combined attack over land, underground, and even from the air! While the warriors of Cyspeth assailed the citadel gate, Skaven tunnelers of Clan Deathbite erupted from the storage cellars beneath the castle. As the defenders fell back from the walls to combat this threat, a group of strange, warpstone-powered aircraft made from crashed Dwarfen Gyrocopters raked the walls with Ratling Guns. Though all of these flying machines eventually crashed or were destroyed, the aerial assault planned by Verminous Fang certainly contributed to the castle’s fall. However, upon entering the Keep, the attackers discovered that many of the defenders had already evacuated along a hidden tunnel that the Skaven had missed. The defenders were already regrouping in Sokh! Cyspeth’s forces must gather their strength and then push on quickly if they are to meet their rendezvous with destiny at Middenheim.
Wow. A non-SoCer telling us off for GW accecpted ideas. Wow. The whole point of this is to reason out a way to make it so people will play it! Second of all if you could :read: you would see thst they are built from gyrocopeters. But of course you looke at the title and said "Thats Bull S@#$" and then complained. So, I agree that it needs to be tweeked, but your opions can be stated after you know all the facts, instead of a water-down hodge-podge!

Sorry had to rant for a while.....
<font color="darkred">Your words are just bloody fallacy,
A house of cards, painted white.
Tried to recreate Normandy,
But you made up the reasons to fight</font>

Mik was here! <font color=pink> <-thanks </font>
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Khilkhret Foe-slayer
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MOVE AND SHOOT?! thats a 35 inch range! THAT IS NUTS!

I for one say keep it at move-or-shoot... It makes sense, too. The rats steering have to flip the switches and pull the levers and then get over to the gun to fire it, so why would htey be able to do that while flying the thing?

plus, its CHEAPER than a gyrocopter! and its BETTER!

Several things from V1.1 should be ressurected- the higher price tag, and the roll-at-least-two-dice-when-using-ratling-gun rule... finally, the Ratling Gun's 1-2 misfire has no use- as a flyer, its a skirmisher, with 360 degree LOS. why does direction matter? It can;t hit units, it jsut moves. we need something better, like the machine suffers kickback and goes back 1 inch for every three shots fired or something...
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Darkslayer
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hehe why stop at two dice... Make the rat frenzy, move and shoot and force it to roll 3d6. As with other suggestions it would work out pretty well imho.

It wouldnt be able to just sit back and shoot, the fanatic nature of the pilot would make the bugger move fast. maybe artilery (sp) die times something instead of a set movement. and make it take a leadership test to be able to fire normaly otherwise its 3d6. also limiting the number of turns it can stay in the air because of fuel or pilot error would be good no?

on that thinkin if movement is rolled an 8 or 10 it has to be in a straight line even if it smacks into things. and wouldnt be able to fire. also a misfire would be bad of course.
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Verminous Fang
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Make the rat frenzy, move and shoot and force it to roll 3d6.


I'm not sure I understand that, but it gave me a really cool idea: Move like a pump wagon! That's right, nominate a direction and roll the dice (4d6 sounds good, though maybe 3d6). If it hits anything, refer to crash chart. Wicked! :D
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Tunnel Rat
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Kill-Kill: I'm sorry I made you rant like that. I don't think I ever made someone mad on this site before. But despite being recorded in a nation wide campaign(never really was a fan of SoC), in terms of game mechanics I still think it's way too powerful. C'mon man, it's a flying ratling gun!

Additionly, doesn't the ratlingcopter contradict a couple of the house rules anyway?

1) The Rule of Parity: Is it skaveny to fly at all?

2) The Rule of Precedent: see Agoraphobic rules

3) The Rule of Peculiarity: we're using a gyrocopter, a unique weapon from the dwarfs

Quote:
 
In addition, we dont want to look like a bunch of power-hungry rats who just want the largest, shiniest addition to our horde.


If people want to play it fine. I am the minority it seems so don't get all flustered because of me. I'll be a team player and help... for now.
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Khilkhret Foe-slayer
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My idea for Movement-
Roll a D6- on a 1-3, it counts as a 1, and on a 4+, it counts as a 2. That is how many artillery dice you roll for movement. move that number of inches, turning only at a number of inches equal to what one of the dice rolled. If either die is a misfire, move it the distance the other die shows (if there is another die that isn't a misfire) and then roll on the misfire chart.

My idea for shooting-
Roll a D6- on a 1-3, it counts as a 1, and on a 4+, it counts as a 2. That is how many artillery dice you roll for shooting. Fire that number of shots (yes, a maximum of 20!), and if either misfires, roll a d6 on the misfire chart.
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