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Dwarf Tactica; How to beat Dwarfs with Skaven
Topic Started: 13th September 2004 - 06:26 AM (5,909 Views)
Lethalis
Clanrat
Actually, compared to other skaven troops they're not that cowardly. And against Dwarfs, what would scare them away?

(don't answer with flame cannon or organ gun, I'm assuming you can keep them away from those ;))
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Bugamo
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I've found a Warlock Engineer with Death Globes to be invaluable. Since you don't need dispel scrolls you can use the points for DGs and the Storm Daemon. Once the Slaves/swarms are in start pitching in the DG. Also a skitterleaped WE is not often expected and can really mess up formations as he scrambles away.

Plauge monks work pretty well against slayers, especialy with a plague priest to back them up.

If you use the "super unit" with the Dwarf Slayer/ Weeping Blade/Gouger don't be afraid to issue a chalenge. Maybe not against lords but you should be able to take out a hero. Regular Clansmen will get bogged down a fight with no champion/hero allowing for the eventual flank attack.

The castle defence is a pretty hard nut to crack. If you park your tunnelers on his war machines and get them in turn 2 or 3 you should be able to focus your own shooting and/or magic on his units to get the de-ranked or even better below 50% for VPs.

Giant rats running at full speed towards the war machines can be useful as he will either shoot at them (big deal, they're cheap) or get swamped when they hit.

That being said I usualy draw against dwarves and have a hard time cracking a castle set up.

Thanks for the great article(s).
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lurk
Unregistered

What is this about the average dwarf warrior with a 3+ armour save!


Heavy armour+shield=4+


Ordinary warriors can not have gromril armour. :censor: :duel:
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Skaskrit Venomclaw
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Ex-Councilrat

Read the rulebook... in close combat, you get +1 armour save for using handweapon and shield. So, Dwarf warriors get 3+ saves in close combat.
"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?"

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
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General Vorg
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Keeper of the Squeeks and the Temple

unless they are not using handweapons (crossbows, halberds spears..... )

squeeks
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
General Vorg
May 30 2005, 04:57 PM
unless they are not using handweapons (crossbows, halberds spears..... )

squeeks

crossbows are a ranged weapon, so they'd still use the handweapon they carry with them in close combat.
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General Vorg
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Keeper of the Squeeks and the Temple

oh ys, nvm the crossbows... just hablerds and so on....

squeeks
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Sturg
Stormvermin
ive found screaming bells are also great fun against dwarves, especially if your fielding a "hard unit".
immunity to psychology(for panic tests) and impact hits are nice(equal to decent fighting characters but can get more of them and hit automatically)
not only that but the bell tolling can add fear causing, or terror to the unit, stubbornness and of course, the 9-10 roll that flattens the war machines, or at least does a good punch to them.
just my thoughts.
Its not whether you win or lose, its how much you laugh about every exploding device and wizard that kills himself, proving to your opponent that you are utterly and irreversibly insane, after all its the Skaven way :D

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Nightlord
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Ratsassin Adept
Quote:
 
ve found screaming bells are also great fun against dwarves, especially if your fielding a "hard unit".
immunity to psychology(for panic tests) and impact hits are nice(equal to decent fighting characters but can get more of them and hit automatically)
not only that but the bell tolling can add fear causing, or terror to the unit, stubbornness and of course, the 9-10 roll that flattens the war machines, or at least does a good punch to them.


This is a *good* tactic vs the all-combat Dwarf army. With nothing to take down the Bell at range, all they can do is brace themselves for the eventual impact. With the Bell's impact hits, an Assassin, and possibly a BSB in the back, you should be sure of breaking Warriors, and if their Lord has taken an Oathstone, he can't come and join in.

There are a couple of nasty runes-one that allows a unit to take a Break test on one D6, for example, or the Rune that makes a unit count as double unit strength, so avoid units with magic banners (Ironbreakers, Hammerers, and Longbeards) for this tactic. If you're forced to charge a hard unit, make sure that you can jump on any flanking units that try and spoil your day.
The Skaven language is the only one to include 32 words for "friendly fire" and none for "reliability"
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Silver
Stormvermin
personnal technique, I play a lord with fellblade (somehow this guy always does 10 times more damage than he costs me ... 200 points ... will eviscerate chaos lords, all multi wound units, steam tanks, dragons ... who cares if he dies, he was just 200 points (dont let him die too fast because you need the Ld)

I also have a stormvermin unit with banner combo (+7 static CR)

the fellblade can cut down a few dwarves, which is usually enough for a normal +5 CR to win combat, if at all possible, take a challenge against a unit champion ... the D6 wounds will give you +6 CR (1 wound + 5 overkill)

you need to avoid the really good dwarf units (longbeards/ironbreakers) if they are full of caracters

anything else can go down, killing a few models in clansmen can be enough to knock down rank bonus a bit, then even clanrats can take them on

shooting usually isnt a problem with 250+ models and Ld 10
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zKoTTe
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Mega-Moulder
Remember though the Dwarves havew become Stubborn when they crew the warmachines, its a lot more frustrating to break those machines
He's a däne he's a Däne
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Sciad the Whisperer
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Having played Dwarfs for two years as my first and main army, I figured I'd add my two cents to this thread...

The main problem I seem to have with Skaven is that I just can't kill enough. One Dwarf unit is worth (with Standard) nearly two Skaven units (assuming they're infantry with command; anything less and the Stunties are worth nearly three to four times their points). With such a large wave of Ratmen, Dwarfs can hardly hope to fight a one-on-one battle, a scenario in which they truly exceed. The best way to win against Dwarfs is not too hard, assuming you know what you're doing: destroy his support and swarm his blocks. The first target(s) of any Dwarf army should always be war machines and fire support: Grudge Throwers, Cannons, Bolt Throwers, Flame Cannons, Organ Guns, Quarrelers, Thunderers, and Slayers are the easiest way to get Victory Points (not to say they are easy to beat; quite the contrary). I usually find that Gutter Runners are more than capable of taking out Dwarf war machines. Poison counters one of the Dwarfs' main strengths: their good toughness. Keep the bulk of the Ratmen just within charge range until your magic, Jezzails, Ratling Guns, and whatever other ranged attacks decimate or severely weaken his fire support, then move in for the kill (preferably with at least three units). However, there are some units that even four Clanrat units will not defeat: Hammerers. Avoid them at all costs. Being Stubborn, they will never break, and Dwarf characters will chop those rats to bits. Let your shooting and magic take care of them. Keep some Slaves behind to take table quarters, and with the points you've suckered the Dwarfs out of and the table quarters, you should be able to pull off a Minor Victory without too much effort. It really all depends on how well his shooting does; I have seen a Grudge Thrower destroy 12 Skaven in one shot. Take out any area of effect war machines first, for normal shooting will be ineffective against units of 25+ Clanrats (I'd go 30 against Dwarfs just in case).

Just remember: never fight fair!
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scetto
Clanrat
Well, I have to disagree with you on the hammerer part, unless the unit is joined by a dwarf lord.

The thing is, dwarf generals are almost always full of confidence in their hammerers. They add in a thane with an oath stone, put the unit on the flank and normally that's hard to deal with. But that's where the sacred standard of the horned rat pops in. A unit of 30 clanrats (or 25 stormvermin with a war banner) with a BSB with the SSotHR and a warlord (with the gouger, dwarf slayer,...) in its front rank can be a very nasty surprise for the overconfident general...

If the hammerers are joined by a lord, they are best to be avoided though (immune to fear and terror AND stubborn is a little bit too good) ^_^
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Desmodu
Unregistered

hmm interresting points in here, but i would like to know more,...

My oponent usually uses a combination of runes so he can test on a d6, or some other rune that help him to keep standing.

One of his flanks is covered by slayers and the other by a oathstone,...

then he places a lord in hammerers in the center,

for the rest he has a unit of thunderers and 2 or three units of warriors (sometimes longbeards)

for warmachines he uses a stonethrower, canon and organ canon....


I've tried a lot against this and i simply cant defeat him, i receive a lot of cr in the turn I charge but then he always simply stands for one reason or the other.
in turn two of hth i usually score about even but after that in turn 3 of hth he runs over me or i flee ahead of him,....

I must add, once his dwarven warriors with great weapons charged my naked slaves of the same size (20), he managed to hit nor wound anything after wich the slaves did an impressive 2 wounds!... and ran over the dwarves and turned the tide of the battle completely :P (Just too funny not to mention here ;) )
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drrat
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Grey Seer
i have played dwarfs over and over and lost once mainly due to my whole army panicking like a wave across my battle line!

Personally i think there are two good ways to deal with dwarfs...

1. Offensive. Take the storm banner and big units, no ranged fire except ratling guns and just scurry across the battlefield with weight of numbers so you can flank every combat. Kit out your characters with dwarfslayers, gougers, etc..no wizards, plague priest, plague monks, censer bearers, basically all the hardhitting stuff. Play with hard flanks and a weak centre so you can ignore the hammerer unit or feed it rubbish whilst your tough troops tear through his weak flanks and his tooled up hammerer unit is busting a gut to get to you. Slayers are ratling gun or plague monk with a priest and censer fodder. You take your pick. You limit his shooting effectiveness by getting into combat quickly.


2. Delayed advance. Hold your battle line more than 24" away ideally 31". This immediately makes his organ gun useless and any crossbowmen he might have. Take tunnelers as your special units. so 2 units of 4-5, with poisoned weapons. The tunnelers are there for the organ gun, make sure that is taken out, and the next target is the cannon. Also take a good amount of jezzails, 2 units of 6-10. The odd ratling gun will be useful for the end game. You should also take a swarm and march it straight for the other war machine.

The idea is that you shoot with your jezzails at the hammerer unit whittiling it down to your opponent's horror. Once your tunnelers/swarms have taken down the war machines or occupied them then you can begin to move your troops into a tactical position. If you manage to take out his warmachines then you will have to try very hard to lose the game. Keep peppering his most expensive unit with your jezzails and any gyrocopter that comes your way and he will be forced to advance. There will be a point where he will be in ratling gun and jezzails range, about 12-15" away, this is when you will be most destructive, remember just concentrate fire on his most expensive unit. Once the hammerers are gone his king is not stubborn. Once he gets to you you will have plenty of time to flank him and mop up any stragglers.

There are other strategies which are variations on both of these extremes but either is effective although the first especially depends on not having too much interposing terrain. good luck!
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
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