| Dwarf Tactica; How to beat Dwarfs with Skaven | |||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 13th September 2004 - 06:26 AM (5,908 Views) | |||
| Kraven Tailblade | 13th September 2004 - 06:26 AM Post #1 | ||
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Loyal servant of the Great Horned One
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TACTICS/ADVICE The biggest secret to beating Dwarfs is to outmaneuver and outflank them. Take away Their rank bonus at all costs. Win thru CR. Never fight one on one. Always outnumber them. Carefully pick your targets. If he has a powerful "super unit", avoid it, then it'll become a waste of points. Hit his flanks with a ranked unit if possible. NR won't take away rank bonus. Be careful using them as flankers vs. Dwarfs, it could backfire and help the Dwarf CR. Small missile units(especially w/ standards) ,war machines, and lone Runesmiths are great targets for NR/GR. If the unit has a powerful Hero in it,avoid fighting the front rank. Hit the flanks/rear with at least 2 units. If you win and he flees, you have 2 chances to run him down, without his Hero ever getting to fight. Dwarfs are slow, run circles around your opponent. Pick your fights. Take table quarters too. THE NATURE OF DWARFS A few basic things common to all Dwarfs. WS4(5 for Elites) This means they'll hit on 3's ,we'll need 4's. T4 This means we'll need 5's to wound. LD9 They are brave. They don't need to be near the General for good leadership. MV3 SLOW!! Use this weakness. Outmaneuver them. Dwarfs are "Relentless" they can ALWAYS march. March blockin won't work. They are also "Resolute" 2d6 -1 flee and pursue. They are easier to run down when breaking. Skaven are more likely to get away 2d6+1 flee. Armor- Basic Warriors can have 3+ AS in CC. Missile units will have 4+ if they have shields. The combination of WS/T/LD/AS make Dwarfs a tough opponent. DWARF MAGIC They have no spells to cast, except the Anvil of Doom. That is nothing to worry about anyway,and will only be in large games. They will have alot of Anti-magic. They start with at least 4 dispel dice,not 2. They'll have spell-breaking runes (dispel scrolls). My advice is to go Heavy magic or no magic at all. If you cast at a unit and it has Runes of warding (adds dispell dice,never runs out) choose easier target from then on. Don't waste magic on that unit, shoot it or try something else. DWARF RUNES Most Dwarf characters will have a great armor save . 2+ or better is not uncommon. There are a variety of weapon runes that add attacks,ST,etc. 2 common Thanes; 2+ AS ,ST5 , always strikes first, 3 attacks 1+ rerollable AS, 3 GW attacks ST6 2 common Dwarf rune mistakes; 1) No runes on GW, the +2 St bonus is lost. 2) No extra +1 AS for the HW/Shield bonus. DWARF UNIT RUNDOWN Warlord- T5 and better stats except MV/I than our Warlord. Runes will turn him into a great AS, combat monster. Runelord- Not much in CC. Help with anti-magic. Anvil- Comes with 2 Guards( Ironbreaker Champions). Take this out for 400+ VP. Daemon Slayer- Slayer Lord. No armor save. Unbreakable. Probably some nasty rune weapon. Might lead a Slayer unit or be alone. Thane- About equal to Chieftan. Better WS, worse I. BSB- There are a variety of magic banners. One causes fear, just like SSotHR. Engineer- Gives war machines rerolls. Wimp in CC. Easy VP. Runesmith- As Runelord. Nothing much in CC. He's there for anti-magic. Dragon Slayer- As Daemon Slayer. No armor. Might have a rune axe and add punch to Slayer unit. Warriors-Can have 3+ AS. Might have GW. They are tough when fully ranked with command and Thane. Crossbowmen- Move or Fire weapons.They can still be tough in CC. Usually small units 10 or 12. If they have a standard, he's probably a Newbie. Take the standard for extra VP. Thunderers- Look out! +1 hit short range. Move AND fire! Armor Piercing. 4+ AS in CC. Tough in CC, especially if they have a Champ with 2 pistols. NR will have a hard time with these guys, especially if they get to Stand & Fire!! Miners- Can be kept in reserve and appear at ant table edge.Can't charge the turn they appear though. They'll probably appear to threaten your gun line or support a locked combat. Hvy armor & GW. Rangers- Expensive Dwarf scouts. Don't skirmish. Move thru woods w/ no penalty. Can have xbows or throwing axes. Can be 17+ points/model. Elites- Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Longbeards all have WS5 and St4 and can have a magic standard. Hammerers- GW, Stubborn if with the General. If you see Hammerers, the General is there. It will be a "super unit". Avoid it. Longbeards-Immune to panic. GW Ironbreakers- 2+ AS in CC. Avoid them or beat them thru CR. Use attacks/spells that allow no armor save. Cannon- You know this. Cannon ball or grapeshot. 3 crew T4 LD9 light armor. They might not break, but its worth it to tie them up so they can't shoot. Bolt thrower- Shoots thru ranks. Cheap war machine. Stone thrower- SPLAT!! Template. Slayers- Think of a Rat swarm, but ALOT better. Rank bonus, Standard, Champs, 2 attacks per model, unbreakable, always wound on 4 or better. He can tie you up for a flank charge with theses guys. No armor save though. NR/GR w/ stars can keep shooting and running circles around them. Gyrocopter- Flyer,march blocker, flame template. Push-over in CC. Take it out with skirmishers 360 LOS charge. He can also use it to run down fleeing units. Organ gun- Think Ratling gun. 2 to 10 ST5 AP hits. 18" range. Flame Cannon- Think WFT. Extra 12" range. Panic tests. SKAVEN MAGIC Screaming Bell- results 9-10 great, 8 - not great. Useful vs. Dwarfs. Just expect it to get alot of attention. Use a large pushing unit and Unbranner. Skitterleap- Put Engineers/Seers in place to cast spells. Chieftans/Assassins to attack war machines or lone Runesmiths. Warp-Lightning- Of course its good. Vermintide- Dwarf uits will be close together/defensive to support each other. You should hit several units. Pestilent Breth- Dwarfs hate these words "No armor save"! Death Frenzy- Can turn a losing combat into a winning combat, if you can get it off. Plague- Yes! No armor save. Units will be close together for support. SKAVEN UNITS FOR THE JOB Grey Seer- Take him if going heavy magic. Warlocks- Same as Seer. Warlord- You'll need his LD. Pick your fights carefully. Keep him out of challenges. Assassin- Can tip important combats in your favor. Take out lone heroes and war machines. BSB- You'll probably need those rerolls. Chieftan/ Plague Priest/Master Moulder- Put with solid units and attack rank and file. Include unit Champions to accept challenges and die. Clanrats- Yes. Large units to take casualties and keep rank bonus. Stormvermin- I might be biased ,but I say no. He'll probably shoot them up before they can do much. 8 /9 points is too much. Slaves- Yes. Cheap missile screen, flanker, diversion, outnumbering. Rat Swarms- Yes. Tie up units and flank. Keep that "super unit" away from you a few turns. Night Runners- Yes. Take out war machines, isolated Heroes, small missile units. PWG- Maybe. Globes give no AS. But use with caution. A few shooting casualties and they'll keep running. Giant Rat Packs- Yes. Excellent fast flankers. 2 or 3 packs strong. Gutter Runners/ Tunnel Teams- Yes. Even better than NR. Use with care. Jezzails- Yes. Shoot up those Elte units. Whittle down units before you attack them. A few casualties can reduce the enemy rank bonus and help you win CC. Plague Monks- Yes. Beware early missile casualties. Rat Ogres- Yes. Good flankers if 2 or 3 strong. Keep away from Slayers! Plague Censers- Yes. Lethal. WLC- Yes. Shoot those juicy targets.Zip down a flank and shoot across several units. Some good Skaven Magic items; Gouger- No armor save. Dwarf-Slayer- Duh! Umbranner- protect a large "anchoring" unit from shooting. SSotHR- fear and otnumbering is lethal. Brass Orb- Throw it in the middle of those Ironbreakers. Swarm banner- Yes. You should be outnumbering him anyway. Press the advantage. |
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Warlord Kraven Tailblade " Life is cheap. Yours is worthless. " May the Great Horned One bless you!! | |||
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 13th September 2004 - 11:28 AM Post #2 | ||
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Ex-Councilrat
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Great article! The tactica's are really adding up, now. I especially liked the unit analyses versus Dwarfs. However, one question. You say the way to defeat Dwarfs is to outflank them. True, the way to defeat most opponents is to outflank them. But how exactly do you accomplish this? Many Dwarfs deploy in a Castle formation, or diagonally across the board. If they do have a flank, they defend it with slayers. The units themselves are deployed close together for mutual support, and you can't go past them without fighting them. Drawing units out of the line is hard to do. The Dwarfs have more firepower than you do, probably, and they have high leadership to restrain pursuits. When I field my Dwarfs, I very rarely get outflanked. In fact, my Dwarfs usually are the ones doing the outflanking. Many people do not seem to expect my Crossbows and Thunderers charging forward to engage a flank. If I do get in an awkward position, I can still flee from the charge and rally next turn at leadership 10, reforming to face the flanking unit. Do you have any tips to defeat such tactics? How to draw Dwarfs from their battle lines? |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |||
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| Kraven Tailblade | 13th September 2004 - 03:50 PM Post #3 | ||
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Loyal servant of the Great Horned One
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Getting an experienced Dwarf General to break ranks will not be easy. There is no easy answer. Beating an experienced Dwarf General who really knows his army is very difficult. I'm not bragging, but I have lost very few games with my Dwarfs. You can try baiting him with Slaves or a "failed charge" . Dwarfs like to get the charge since it seldom happens. Declare a charge with a unit you know is a little out of range of its target. When the charge fails, curse/moan a little, you'll now be in his charge range. He might take the bait. Flee if he does, or hold if its worth it. Otherwise, Skaven should have enough firepower/spells to challenge Dwarfs. Concentrate on one unit and make a hole in his line or flank. Exploit that opening. If all else fais , you can always take table quarters.LOL!
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Warlord Kraven Tailblade " Life is cheap. Yours is worthless. " May the Great Horned One bless you!! | |||
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| Rattsu | 13th September 2004 - 03:52 PM Post #4 | ||
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My favourite dwarf opponent usually fields 2000-3000 pts of infantry, in massive blocks supported by just a bit of shooting. Our battles usually leads to massive slugfests, and here is how I deal with the solid mass of rock hard troops: The best way to break up the solid dwarf battleline is to smash a hole through it. So I hear you ask, how to do that? It's not easy. But the trick is a big regiment of stormvermin (or clanrats with sword and shield). In the back rank you stick a BSB with the sacred standard of the horned rat to cause fear. In the front rank you stick a warlord or an assassin with either the desolate blade or the gouger. Or both *smirks* Don't be afraid to go overboard with killing power. You should get the charge, and hopefully be able to win with at least 1. If not on the first turn, then on the second, because of their low initiative. Then the dwarves will run, and you will follow. The lines should look something like this: .............DDD.....DDD......DDD.......... .............SSS......SSS.......SSS.......... Then: .........................DDD...................... .............DDD.....SSS......DDD.......... .............SSS..................SSS.......... That is if they even manage to get away. Now that the line is broken you there will be much more opportunity to use the second line skaven units, like rat ogres and rat swarms that has been lurking behind the lines for an opportunity like this. You should outnumber the dwarves after all. And most people does not expect to be flanked from the middle. The thing is, after being hurt badly in HtH a few times, most dwarf players seems to beef up their regiments and characters a LOT (rune of swiftness anyone?). That's when you bring your grey seer and arsenal to battle and just blasts them to pieces since they have sacrificed all their anti magic, and will be even worse outnumbered than before. Adapt, adopt and improve is the name of the game here... |
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I am currently writing an epic Dragon Age 2 adventure that can be found HERE!! or on my deviantart.
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 13th September 2004 - 04:09 PM Post #5 | ||
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Ex-Councilrat
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That tactic works, I've tried it a couple of times. It's a bit risky, though, as you're essentially creating a 'super unit.' One failed panic test (flame cannon, anyone?) and your expensive block of troops melts away like an ice cube in a volcano... Also, once you've tried this, expect Dwarfs to shoot everything they've got at this unit and tool up their Veterans with Runes of Courage and such. Another nasty trick: after fielding the Sacred Standard in one battle, use the Stormbanner in the next. All the missile troops the Dwarf player brought along to smash your big hammer unit will be useless. However, I do not really like to use such tactics. I do not usually tailor my army to face a specific foe, but prefer to use the same type of 'take on all comers' force at all times. On the one hand, this tends to make some battles a tad more difficult. On the other hand, it makes it harder for my foes to surprise me, as my army is designed to take on anything anyway. On another note, when fighting dwarfs, it is also good to remember they can field different kinds of army, too. I myself use a Dwarf army tooled for close combat, with just a little missile support. It's quite numerous, too: 104 models in 2000 points. (Numerous for Dwarfs, that is.) This army usually defeats enemy close combat armies, but struggles against foes with lots of long range firepower. The 'classic' Dwarf army full of thunderers and runed up artillery is almost impossible to defeat in a shooting match, but easier to overcome in close combat. Use of Stormbanner and Gutter Runners is recommended. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |||
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| Rattsu | 13th September 2004 - 07:25 PM Post #6 | ||
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Yeah, that's right. *grins* That is why I use a warlord, with the warpstone reroll thingy just to avoid those mishaps. Ld 10 makes for a pretty reliable unit. But most of the time my rats have sterling morale. Far better than my Brets really...
Oh they do *grins* Which is why the trick is to switch tactics like you and me both said. But the thing is, once you've got the dwarf player on the defensive, he usually tailors his army to kill what you brought last time, and if you keep switching tactics you will be one step ahead. They have a lot of variation, but Skaven has more.
*grins* Same here. I never use the dwarf slayer for that reason, my characters always have the same magic items as well. And my army remains essentially the same. At least if I fiend Rattsu, he never goes anywhere without his stormvermin. The thing is, I use that hammer unit when fighting most the armies around here. Dwarves. Chaos. Black Orks. Lizardmen. It works on all of them. Which is why I keep mentioning it, to give other people a chance to actually kick some ass in HtH and not just shoot other hard hitting armies into itty bitty pieces. I have found that the most annoying thing in the dwarf army for me is the gyrocopter which can pursue further than the stubby short legged ones... Which is why it usually ends up in a ratling gun vs gyrocopter shootout somewhere... |
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I am currently writing an epic Dragon Age 2 adventure that can be found HERE!! or on my deviantart.
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| Bassik Dwarveripper | 13th September 2004 - 07:50 PM Post #7 | ||
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Pfet! Dwarves! I've never lost to their pathetic troops! Much-much dwarven holds are now infested with rats, I can tell you. Allright, in the beginning, My friend did dwarves, and long long time ago, I started Skaven. I got beaten when my list was to cheesy, but now I'm fine, thank you much-much! |
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| Kraven Tailblade | 13th September 2004 - 07:53 PM Post #8 | ||
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Loyal servant of the Great Horned One
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There's alot of good ideas here. There is no one way to beat the Dwarfs. They can take different army lists,just like anybody. One time alot of troops,next time alot of shooting,etc. Pick on vulnerable targets. Never fight one on one. Outmaneuver/flank & negate ranks. Tunnel teams (or NR/GR) operating behnd his lines killing war machines or small missile units might make him break the line to deal with that threat too. Keep the tactics coming. Alot of Skaven have trouble with Dwarfs. Once we finish this up we'll see if we can get it pinned. Thanks everybody. |
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Warlord Kraven Tailblade " Life is cheap. Yours is worthless. " May the Great Horned One bless you!! | |||
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| Stinkhair | 13th September 2004 - 09:58 PM Post #9 | ||
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Dabbling GM. Clanrat loon. 6th Edition Aficionado. Bitter.
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heavy armour and GW? uh, how do we deal with these, fielding a unit of clanrats behind the main battle line seems a good bet, but if they turn up on the dwarf's side of the field, i've wasted a lot of points..... but then again, it's always good to have a reserve..... |
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 13th September 2004 - 11:12 PM Post #10 | ||
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Ex-Councilrat
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Miners are not too great a threat, depending on your army and the field of battle. If you have jezzails or something, the miners can attack these. I wouldn't do anything to stop them. The miners arrive on turn 2 at the earliest, and charge on turn 3. Usually it will be turn 4 or even 5 before the jezzails are charged. By that time, your army will have crossed the table and will be fighting/shooting the dwarfs from close range. Your jezzails will already have fired 4 or so salvoes, which should be plenty. Even better, your Jezzails are movement 5 skirmishers. They can simply avoid the Miners by moving away. They will never be caught. If you're clever during deployment, you can simply have the skirmishing jezzails run through a wood for a turn, and start shooting again once they're on the other side. The miners will have to march all the way around it. Detaching a unit capable of beating (or at least holding up) the miners seems a waste of points. If your attack on the Dwarf battleline takes you close to a table edge on the flank, miners are a bigger threat. As Dwarfs love to deploy in a corner of the board, you will usually have to go past a flank. In this case, the miners will move on the table to threaten your flank whilst another unit moves up to engage your front. Using this tactic, my Miners have frequently routed the Chaos Warriors stomping towards my lines. There are several ways to counter this, though. Firstly, it only works if the miners show up just before you hit their battle line. If they're early, you can simply turn and destroy them. Alone, they're easy to outflank. If they turn up late, they will not be able to make a difference anymore. To stop them from outflanking you when they do turn up in time, simply place a unit of slaves or giant rats behind your unit next to the table edge. If the Miners threaten to flank-charge your front unit, they expose their own flank to your slaves. If they move to attack the Slave/Giant Rat unit, you're happy too. Simply angle the unit away from your line and take the charge. By the time the Miners have dealt with the slaves and turned back towards the main battle, they will never be able to catch up with your Skaven again. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |||
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| whiteclone | 14th September 2004 - 03:08 AM Post #11 | ||
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Clan Kynix Warmonger
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How many models should I expect to fight in 1500 pt. games? Or more important, how used are miners? | ||
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| Kraven Tailblade | 14th September 2004 - 05:32 AM Post #12 | ||
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Loyal servant of the Great Horned One
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I forgot something. Weapon teams- They're great. Big surprise. Don't be afaid to shoot into combats. Warriors cost as much as 2 Clanrats or 5 Slaves. Elites & Missie troops cost as much as 3 CR or 8 Slaves. Miners won't show up until later. They can't do anything the turn they show up. Unless you play a real big game it will be a unit of 12, 16 tops. You'll have 1 turn to shoot/magic them, and possibly some stand & shoot. Just a guess, but expect to see about 70-80 models in 1.5 K. You should outnumber easily. |
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Warlord Kraven Tailblade " Life is cheap. Yours is worthless. " May the Great Horned One bless you!! | |||
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| Skaskrit Venomclaw | 14th September 2004 - 09:29 AM Post #13 | ||
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Ex-Councilrat
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Weapon teams indeed work great. Against Dwarfs, I recommend Warpfire Throwers. The added strength makes all the difference. As Dwarfs usually have fairly deep blocks of warriors on small bases, the template inflicts lots of hits, too. If the Dwarfs fail a panic test, it's a bonus, but don't count on it. Ratling guns are good against lines of missile troops and the Gyrocopter, but since you're better off charging missile troops I do not recommend using many. |
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"I have a post-Armageddon vision. We and all other large animals are gone. Rodents emerge as the ultimate post-human scavengers. They gnaw their way through New York, London and Tokyo... within 5 million years, a whole range of new species replace the ones we know. Herds of giant grazing rats are stalked by sabre-toothed predatory rats. Given enough time, will a species of intelligent, cultivated rats emerge?" Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale | |||
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| chieftainskritchskritch | 5th October 2004 - 09:46 AM Post #14 | ||
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The Freshmaker
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I found tha the castle formation has its flaws regarding flanking. If you can set up "2 armies" (that is, deploy half on one side of the board and the other half in the other side, or something like this) tends to work. When your 1st half arrives at his lines, you'll engage him in combat. After a few turns, the 2nd half with turn up and be able to attack flanks because the army will be engaged. Besides, you're half army will most probably outnumber him, so deploying half and half isnt bad. | ||
| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | |||
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| The Lost One | 26th January 2005 - 01:25 AM Post #15 | ||
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Unregistered
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Gutter Runners are Great for taking out war machines. Pity they're cowardly<sighs>. | ||
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