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battle situations and the races that excel
Topic Started: 7th August 2004 - 02:02 PM (404 Views)
phordicus
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Battlemaster of Clan Skrikkik

1. besieging a fortress
2. defending a fortress
3. open battlefield
4. urban battle

my responses

1. empire, chaos dwarfs
2. empire, dwarfs
3. bretonnia, druchii, skaven
4. skaven, wood elves, druchii
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Skaveni primi, skaveni infiniti.
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SingTheScreams
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Call me Sings

wood elves in a city? well... yes and no.
archers give you some control over the main routes (step in the way and be shot to hell)
lots of tough skirmishing troops (dryads, wardancers) who can maul just about any other skirmishers in the game
treemen = roadblock
flying troops pester well

BUT

-wood elves special rules for shooting (AP at short range, no mods for long range) are mostly ineffective
-are very vulnerable to return fire
-your small expensive skirmishers will eventually be surrounded and swamped, or fall prey to roving characters *cough* assassins :ph43r:


i'd say instead, beastmen would win this. skirmished movement gives them all the manouverability they need, plus they get the normal punch in combat. small units of tough, fear-causing monsters (minotaurs, ogres, trolls) will demolish enemy skirmishers, especially if caught where they cannot outmanouvre them (a common occurance in city battles, i find). tough characters hold the key bottlenecks, and centigors take out the enemy fast cavalry.


I do however agree that skaven are best in urban environments. with the ability to shoot into combat, lots of units, and weapon teams pwn. a single WFT or ratling gun, supported by a clanrat unit, can hold a key movement corridor just by being there (clanrats prevent units from simply running through, guns threaten approaching enemy units). jezzails are both manouverable and powerful. swarms can hold up a key enemy unit for the entire game, sometimes! Because you'll most likely outnumber them, if they send a unit back to help their (knights, dragon ogres, etc) that the swarms are holding up, that position should quickly be swamped by your massed units.
rat ogres, plague monks and PCB's in close-quarters fighting. few chances to shoot at them. need i say more?
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arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
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Cypher19
Mad Hatter
Dwaves are definatly best at defending a fortress. There slow movement dosn't matter much, and they have fire power and CC in abundents(sp).
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

Eshin especially would be excellent in a city!!!!!
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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SingTheScreams
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Call me Sings

im sorry but i have to disagree: clan skaven are better. here's my logic (this is based on a 'normal' eshin list, using only skirmishers and UCOD):

eshin has one advantage, as I see it at least
1) powerful characters. a powerful character such as the master assassin, or an eshin triad, may well be able to clear one small pocket of enemy troops (especially if working in conjunction with a gutter runner unit or another triad). This is especially true against elite armies like elves. If a small amount of your troops can deal with a moderate amount of theirs, that both adds greatly to your outnumbering potential and manouverability/movement options.

clan skaven, however, have three (again, as I see it).
1) clan skaven have ranked units. eshin doesn't. Ranked units have a far higher chance of holding their own in an isolated 1v1 (+4 to combat off the bat, probably +5 including outnumber). night runners would only count the kills they get and possibly +1 for outnumbering.

2) eshin draws strength from the UCOD rules, which limits the enemy's missile fire. In a city, with so much LOS being blocked by large buildings, and most of the rest counting as hard cover (walls etc), missile fire is ineffective to begin with. eshin loses most of its advantage against missile heavy armies

3) eshin cannot take weapon teams. if a unit tries to advance down an open movement corridor, a single weapons team (in cover or under protection of a clanrat unit, of course) could either discourage the enemy unit(s) and 'encourage' them to take another route, or take a heavy toll on the approaching bad guys.
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arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

Good points, especially about the weapon teams. I was thinking along the lines of eshin being able to get behind the enemy units easily and charging their rear... rob them of their rank bonus...
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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phordicus
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Battlemaster of Clan Skrikkik

Sammy the Squid
Aug 12 2004, 05:55 PM
Good points, especially about the weapon teams. I was thinking along the lines of eshin being able to get behind the enemy units easily and charging their rear... rob them of their rank bonus...

skirmishers don't remove ranks. except wardancers sometimes.
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Skaveni primi, skaveni infiniti.
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if you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword; but do not show your poem to one who is not a poet.

- japanese proverb
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SingTheScreams
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Call me Sings

he has a point, even without negating ranks thats +2 to combat. i figure a clan skaven army can still take eshin troops though, allowing it to get some units behind enemy lines, but also having a solid core of clanrats, monks, stormvermin, and slaves to be able to meet enemies head-on whilst the skirmishers/flankers uotmanouvre your opponent(s).
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arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
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Madthing
Chieftain
By the same token, unless I'm sorely mistaken, an Eshin army can take standard Skaven troops, just with Night Runners as mainstay. Sure, you don't get UCOD, but in a city, who cares?
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Jackety
FEAR THE LEMMING!
I think Chaos for defending and besieging a fortress. Why?
If you take a Chosen warrior of Khorne, champion, shield and hand weapon, you could probally take a wall: 4 attacks, a S4, hitting on 6's. You'll probally get a few of those off, and wounding very likely, therefore winning the combat thanks to that 2+ save. Therefore BRUTALLIZING the enemy in the next round. (Line of 10: 30 WS5, S4 attacks.)
Defending as well: High WS, Ld, S, T, and armor save will ensure a well kept wall, unless a character shows up...
Open terrain: Skaven, Brets, Dwarves, Empire, and Elves.
Why?
Open space+Many troops and high Ld=No gaps in line=Swamped enemies.
Or the Lance. Thats just horrifying...
Urban...ehhh...
Warlord clans of Skaven, Chaos (No flank charges against them), Empire (Firing line down a long street...is evil.), Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves (Same reason as Empire).
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vasquisk
a.k.a. I-D-I-O-T (Dark Lords of the Overempire)
I don't know (I don't play many games in urban battlefields, I prefer the Bleak Battlefield of Doom - a.k.a. "I can't be ar$ed to make my own scenery), but I'd think that Vampire Counts (or, at least, the necromancer heavy armies) would be quite handy in a city. Large(ish) blocks of unbreakable, fear-causing troops can hold up advances and channel attacks into blocks of scarier troops, while the necros can run around, patching up the units or creating new ones just right for flank or rear charges. They'll have a lot more manouverability than most armies, since they only really have to move the 'mancers around and then drag a unit up from the ground.
Those are just my thoughts. Feel free to treat them with Extreme Prejudice, or shoot a contemptuous glare at me (I'm so happy to be back in London that I don't really care... :D )
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SingTheScreams
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Call me Sings

dwarves are good in cities because they have relatively tough basic troops. add in ironbreakers or hammerers and youve got a killer unit you cant flank charge. back it up with artillery and youre set.
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arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

Yeah, Dwarf artillery would excell at defending fortresses, though Id miss the good old Empire Hellblaster! That is brilliant for defending a city. Especially if you have more than 1!
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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SingTheScreams
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Call me Sings

helblaster DEATH! one friend of mine had one waiting just inside the main gate, off to the side, then another facing the gate a bit farther away. talk about insane! he also had two mortars and a cannon going up my ass... fortunately he had very few points left for troops....
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arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
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benchia
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wood elves in almost any kind of situation. unless it's a 24" by 24" open battlefield facing off against chaos warriors, then good luck.
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