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| Magic; No magic, does it unbalance some armies | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 3rd August 2004 - 10:09 PM (572 Views) | |
| Chieftain Skittar | 3rd August 2004 - 10:09 PM Post #1 |
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Battle Chief of Clan Skirrit
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Hey all, Some friends of mine have started playing recently and they want to cut out magic. Will this unbalance some armies? Do you think it would greatly affect the Skaven or not? They play Dark Elf and Empire armies also Chaos. Let me know what you guys think Chieftain Skittar |
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| Gwydyon | 4th August 2004 - 05:50 AM Post #2 |
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Clanrat
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Skaven should be fine, so long as you don't go heavy on the Warlocks. They can be a very effective force without any magic at all. Where you guys will run into serious trouble is if any of you plays undead. Without magic they'll be neutered. I don't think anyone else relies on it so much that they can't win without it. That being said, I'd keep it in. It's a part of the game and it adds interesting strategies and flavor to the battles. If it's a matter of it being too complicated you can always phase it in slowly to give everyone some time to learn as you go. If it's a matter of realism... well, you are playing a game with humanoid rats, elves, and orcs... Does the lack of magic also mean no magic items? That might have a deeper effect on things... I'll have to ponder that. |
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| Thrask Vilepaw | 4th August 2004 - 10:05 AM Post #3 |
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The Grim Squeaker
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you cant cut out magic with skaven! it make them far more explosive and random, youre warlocks will be useless. skaven are the produce of warpstone= pure magic... |
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Official master of parades by Rattsu BEWARE THE GRIM SQUEAKER ![]() ![]()
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| Cypher19 | 4th August 2004 - 11:24 AM Post #4 |
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Mad Hatter
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I think he just meant the magic phase. I think it's a horrable idea and you should opose it openly. Magic is part of the game, taking it out would be like reading a book when every other page was missing. you would get the general idea, but it would be lacking. Magic is an important part of the game, and loosing that would make the game mundane and uninteresting. just my 2 tokens. |
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| Chieftain Skittar | 4th August 2004 - 06:48 PM Post #5 |
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Battle Chief of Clan Skirrit
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I agree, i'm dead aganst no magic, not that i rely upon it but my friends have seen the worst side of it. You know, the guy who uses nothing but 4 necro's in a Vampire count army and does nothing but cast Curse of years and gaze of nagash all through the game. It also didn't help that in a recent game my solitary Warlock managed to kill 12 knights with warp lightning in 1 cast. Anyway i just wanted some counter arguments. Cheers Chieftain Skittar 12 knights in 1 cast of warp lightning anyone ever beat that? |
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| WolfBlade | 4th August 2004 - 06:53 PM Post #6 |
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Grey Seer
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I don't really like playing full magic with my skaven army. I use warlocks to destroy enemy caf (the only things that are faster then me). My style is offensive and anti-caf. When enemy caf is down, its time for some combat action. |
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| typo | 4th August 2004 - 08:37 PM Post #7 |
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Grey Seer
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ive been trying to cut out magic for a LONG time. Since i have completely cut it out im 7 and 1 with my skaven. So in other words no, ALL of the traditionally "magic" armies also havedevastating other phases. |
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That pesky warmachine keeping you down, or is that combat monster destroying your army? NEVER FEAR... ESHIN IS HERE Wherever there is injustice... I will be there... Wherever crime is going on unhindered... I will be... Oh screw it, cant anyone take the law into their own hands Happy Hunting Cheers, Typo Record (w/l/t) 27/5/7 SoC Record(w/l/t) 13/1/2 | |
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| Chieftain Skittar | 4th August 2004 - 11:45 PM Post #8 |
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Battle Chief of Clan Skirrit
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Hey Typo, Is that 7 wins and 1 loss or 7 losses and 1 win. How do you compensate having no magic, more ratlings or something different. Cheers Chieftain Skittar |
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| Rodgar | 5th August 2004 - 08:10 PM Post #9 |
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Unregistered
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I use little magic, only 2 warlocks and little shooting that matter only 2 ratling guns... I rely on the power of the horde to win me games, for instance, we are playing mostly 2250 games here currently and I am about 12-3 with my skaven horde that is 300 models strong with 20 units and 2 ratling guns.... This is all due to angling my units properly, baiting with slaves and generally dictating the flow of the battle... It takes some getting used to, but you will find your games much more consistent without the magic/shooting crutch... |
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| 'Ttakquick | 6th August 2004 - 01:49 AM Post #10 |
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Grey Seer
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You can always set up a battle where there is only 1 wizard allowed (undead cant live w/o them), be it a lord or hero. You will find the magic phase shorter and direct the attention towards all the other phases. Try it out! |
'Ttakquick. Battle Standard of Clan Mors! Litter-spawn of Lord Queek HeadTaker! [/i][/color] --Lone Wolf and Cub ~INQUISIRAT OF THE UNDEREMPIRE~ | |
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| Ratgash | 8th August 2004 - 09:40 PM Post #11 |
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Unregistered
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I've been thinking about no-magic skaven, with the fluff being a new warlord clan which isn't rich enough to get itself a Grey Seer or Warlocks, but have lots of troops recruited. The points one doesn't spend on magic can be spent elsewhere, so many troops to soak up missile and magic fire, and basically heading to the enemy without any tactics of some kind. Of course, this does mean that the nastier spells, like Dominion or those Nurgle/Slaanesh spells have a good chance of getting through, but then again, what's funnier than seeing an armoured rat go crazy because of a bunch of slaves walking the wrong way because they see an 'exit' sign? Also, it brings the points to use scouts and tunneling teams, so that any war machines and mages can be dealt with pretty fast, which might be even better than having wizards yourself to protect yourself from hostile magic, because they can attack in the rear when the time comes. Also, with so many counts-as-magical weapons, even without spending at least 20 points on it, there's no real loss in the aspect of magic missiles, they just hit a little less harder. Also, do not underestimate the psychological effect. When your opponent sees that enormous horde appearing on the tabletop, he'll probably begin wondering how to kill that many ratmen, even with an über unit or two. Another positive side is that people will complain less about you being cheesy (which is ridiculous most of the time, the skaven general just being good in understanding his troop's weaknesses and big strengts, but annoying nontheless) and just looks great. Of course, I'll never do such an army, a Seer on a Screaming Bell is just too good to pass up, but still I like the idea of a real Warlord Clan, like in the book, with only Slaven, Clanrats, Swarms, Stormvermin, Chieftains, Grey Seers and of course Warlords...and the occasional Ratling gun as long as I don't have enough clanrats to make up for the points I need .Still, such an army isn't that magic heavy (only 8 power dice, and 4 dispel dice), but challenging nevertheless. I do think that magic heavy should only played with races that are made for it, like Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Tzeentch, but that's about it. I indeed think that having 3 Warlock Engineers and a Grey Seer is somewhat cheesy, and with so many other fun heroes, not good to play with. Because that's what the game's all about, having fun. For some, winning is having fun, which is understandable, but you mustn't overdo it. When only playing to win and going for powerplay only, people will not be interested to play against you, and that way you're not only ruining the game for you, bu also for the other guy/gal. To conclude this abnormal rant of mine, I'd like to say that games without magic can be done, and indeed should be done for a change, but there is a reason why the Magic Phase was made, still excists, and isn't going to dissapear, because: a) it's fun 2) some races rely on it, it's hard to find a replacement c) it's fun d) what's cooler than that arrogant lvl4 mage miscasting and forget that über spell? Indeed, it's fun. 5) the game is called Warhammer Fantasy. The Fantasy genre just cannot go on without magic, it's as simple as that. |
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| Rattsu | 9th August 2004 - 09:29 AM Post #12 |
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Is writing Dragon Age fanfiction
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I can understand the argument here. In my group we rarely play magic heavy. At most we have 8 powerdice in a 3000 pts game, and most end up having 6 or less. That is not because we dislike magic, it's simply because we see it as a supplement to those nice 36 blocks of models... *grins* When I played a recent tournament I was shocked to be barraged by armies with around 20 or more powerdice, and if your friends have had something similar happen to them, then I can understand the feeling. The thing is, you stop playing those people that abuse one part of the game to the point that it's not funny (shooting/magic). Or, you load up on magic defense for a battle or two, castrating the opponents magic phase while just destroying his army. People do learn eventually... If they don't like magic, then perhaps they don't use enough, and so are very vulnerable to the effects. That being said I don't think you should abolish magic. It's true that neither Skaven, Chaos or Empire really NEEDS it (not sure about the DE), but why miss out on the fun? Point out that your warlock engineer is no more effective than an empire mortar or cannon can be (for more points), after all to compare things might clear this up. I have played a no-magic skaven army quite a few times, and it can easily be done. Rattsu's horde always was more hand to hand combar oriented, and Skwee the seer just... well, he just doesn't have a good day very often *grins* But I can't help but wonder if it isn't some other irritation at the bottom of this argument... |
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| Chieftain Skittar | 9th August 2004 - 11:11 PM Post #13 |
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Battle Chief of Clan Skirrit
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Rattsu, You were right!, we played WFB all day Sunday. Skaven versus Chaos, (Chaos Minor Victory), then Empire versus Chaos (Chaos Major victory), then we were supposed to play Skaven versus Empire and guess what. Moaning,whinging and cries of unfair advantage, all from the Empire player. I asked what he objected to in particular, "Warlocks, Ratlings and Jezzails" he replied. I think that the no magic suggestion was a cover up for his irritation with the Skaven list. Incidently, the army i used was Chieftain - Grt wpn & warpcharm Engineer - Storm Daemon 30 Clanrats FC + Warpfire 30 Clanrats FC + Ratling + spears 20 Slaves 20 Slaves 10 Nightrunners slings + add wpns 10 Nightrunners add wpns 5 Jezzails 6 Gutter runners Warpfire Cannon 20 Plague Monks FC + add wpns I was expecting to fight Dark Elves with this list. In short we didn't play the last game due to his excessive whinging. Chieftain Skittar |
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| Verminous Fang | 9th August 2004 - 11:52 PM Post #14 |
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Just out of curiosity, what was his army? I really don't think that that list is in the least bit unbalanced. In fact, I think that the 5 jezzails are more annoyance to you than to the opponent. And the warplightning cannon is only really useful if the other guy brings monsters. Well, good job on bringing him to only a minor victory, chaos can be tough... |
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| Cypher19 | 10th August 2004 - 02:35 AM Post #15 |
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Mad Hatter
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he was complaininf about 1 warlock and 5 jazails? Ive used 2 warlocks and 10 jazials in 1000 points(I'll nevver do it again, it was a proxy game and it was no fun to play), but I didn't get any cries of cheese. I did get some complaints about jazails though. And I understood them. I don't use any Jazials now exept in 2500 point games(and then I only use 7). I do think they are a little over powerd, and should cost around 25 points apiece. I'm glad to hear that you desided against no magic. *thumbs up* |
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U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq War: $250,279,000,000 Thats about $150,000 a minute, ten million dollars every hour, and 250 million dollars a day! http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?op...pper&Itemid=182 "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." ~Albert Einstein W/L/D Skaven: 57/16/7 | |
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