Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Overpowered?
Topic Started: 2nd August 2004 - 06:42 AM (469 Views)
Grey Seer Skitterflash
Unregistered

Hey guys. I was recently battling my friend's empire and massacred him (none of his models on the board by turn 4) It was 1200 points. I took: (I'm not listing magic items here for the sake of convenience)
Chieftain
Plague priest
W Engineer
30 clanrats: spears, ratling
21 slaves
8 Night runners: slings
20 Plague monks: umbranner, add hand
8 Tunnel team
2 rat swarms
WLC

He took: (as far as i know)
mage: lvl 2
Some fighty hero on horse
Warrior priest
around 20 spearmen with detachment of 8 swordsmen
18 (?) handgunners
7 (?) knights
great cannon
mortar
huntsmen

Dployment was like this
ma
.........h....m....sp+WP....sw....gc...k+G...HG
.................. :::::::::::::::



.......... nr...... We....Cl+ch....rs.............Sl
.........pm+pp...................rg... WLC


h=huntsmen
m=mortar
sp=spearmen
WP=warrior priest
ma=mage
sw=swordsmen
gc= great cannon
k=knights
G=general
HG=hangunners
:::::::= obstacle
nr=night runners
We=warlock engineer
Cl=clanrats
ch=chieftain
rs=rat swarm
Sl=slaves
pm=plague monks
pp=plague priest
rg=ratling gun
wlc=warp cannon (on hill)

After the battle, he started moaning about how skaven got an overpowered army list.

1) Did something in deployment affect the battle, helping me win?
2) What do you guys think about his comment?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Cypher19
Mad Hatter
your list is pretty average. nothing cheasy. I think he was pissed that you beat him so badly. Alot of poor sports will say an army is cheasy if he get his ass wouped. I bet you 10,000/1 that if he won, he wouldn't have said a thing about your army.

just ignore him.
U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq War: $250,279,000,000
Thats about $150,000 a minute, ten million dollars every hour, and 250 million dollars a day!
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?op...pper&Itemid=182

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
~Albert Einstein

W/L/D
Skaven: 57/16/7
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rattsu
Member Avatar
Is writing Dragon Age fanfiction

Well, your army is certainly nothing cheesy or special.

His on the other hand suffers from a few things...

That much shooting on 1200pts?

Let me guess, he spent the battle shooting with his hangunners at the slaves, earning him NO victory points. He then probably got his knights stuck on the rat swarms, right?

And then your fighting troops proceeded to kick the ass out of his.

You had a good setup.

He had a bad army.

What was he going to fight you with? The cannons? That's worthless against skaven. The mortar might hurt, but that's still just a single thing. The knights are easily bound up and outnumbered or killed with the ratling guns, and 20 spearmen doesn't make anyone happy.

He had far too few fighting troops, that was his downfall.

The Empire, when played correctly is one of the meanest lists there is, if you make a proper army.

Give him the tip to remember that battles are won inthe close combat phase next time...
I am currently writing an epic Dragon Age 2 adventure that can be found HERE!! or on my deviantart.

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
warlord_rattick
Member Avatar
Warlord
Well that pretty much sums up all you can say about that battle :D


Good win!
SoC- Win/Draw/Lose 7/1/1
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
WolfBlade
Grey Seer
I hear it all the time! And I'm really sick of it. The whole club in town says that skaven is overpowered, and It makes me feel like I only win because skaven are to good. The most of this overpowered things come from the best in the club. (Well maybe because he masscarded everyone in the club, except for me. A bloody draw!)

I can't deny that my club consist 99% out of n00bs, and I think thats the point. People that say skaven are overpowered don't know our biggest weakness! The flanks, the wole panic thing, and once we flee, were not coming back (most of the time).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rattsu
Member Avatar
Is writing Dragon Age fanfiction

I had a bit of problem with that at the start.

To be exact, the problem was the ratling gun. Probably because it broke all the rules *grins* by giving autohits (he hellblaster got bitched at too)

But... since I showed the people that Skaven actually needed it to have a chance towards certain races (Chaos!!) it has died down.

Skaven have so many special rules that people has to get used to them first. If they don't know what is hitting them they go like 'WTF?' and get pissed off. What they never realize is that their own army will get the same reaction from someone else...

That being said, Skaven can be cheezed. As can any other armylist there is, so what is the problem?

Explaining the rules and how things fit together usually takes care of many problems.

If not?

Then they are wankers and should be ignored.

[EDIT (Mutator): Tut-tut! Such language! Dont do it again :P]
I am currently writing an epic Dragon Age 2 adventure that can be found HERE!! or on my deviantart.

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nightlord
Member Avatar
Ratsassin Adept
At my club there was little trouble about Skaven rules and weapons (except when my WLC got lucky and took out 5 Chaos Chosen Knights, a Sorcerer, 5 Chosen and a pack of Chaos Hounds) as we all realise that the Skaven have many weak points (such as me being their general).
The Skaven language is the only one to include 32 words for "friendly fire" and none for "reliability"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SingTheScreams
Member Avatar
Call me Sings

ive heard skaven be bitched at for power almost as much as chaos, or 40k eldar and khorne armies. just dont listen. Most of the bitching coming my way was from the players who had never played skaven to any extent before, or had horrible army lists.
I'm personally fairly good when it comes to artillery dice, which helps a lot, but horrible with scatter dice. so when my 2 warpfire throwers never misfire during the 7-turn game, as well as take out 15 witch elves, 7 corsairs, 4 spearmen, two wounds off morathi and killed her pegasus, and caused a shiny unit of cold one knights to flee off the table..... you cant help but think 'hey, these are a little overpowered.
when i moved to Dubai, UAE for 8 months last year (my dads business), the only club from there to (literally) greece was 5 minutes away from our house.... and, with two exceptions, full of complete amateurs! the first exception moved two months after I got there (too bad, they had a chaos war mammoth and a slaanesh army) and the other guy had tons of money, tons of guys, and no tactics. I basically taught half the store how to play properly and plan out an army list. And still my skaven conquered all. everyone though skaven were a cheap army, until i faced Nechrarch vampires with my grey seer and single warlock engineer....
Posted Image
arqueek
 
no need to worry for soul, instead starts worshipping STS and slaughtering unbelievers in his holy name.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
typo
Grey Seer
From the sounds of it it wasnt cheesy or anything of the sort. Ive had a couple battles like that where the loser moans about the ULTIMATE cheesyness of skaven, usually it has something to do with a warlock engineer with a storm daemon?.
That pesky warmachine keeping you down, or is that combat monster destroying your army? NEVER FEAR... ESHIN IS HERE


Wherever there is injustice... I will be there... Wherever crime is going on unhindered... I will be... Oh screw it, cant anyone take the law into their own hands

Happy Hunting

Cheers,
Typo

Record (w/l/t) 27/5/7
SoC Record(w/l/t) 13/1/2
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verminous Fang
Member Avatar


Well, I haven't replied before this because I was thinking about how it went down. What I came up with was that he's really inexperienced. He put his handgunners in the open, but put his spearmen behind an obstacle. He really should have used the obstacle to:

a ) Provide a cover bonus (hedge=soft cover, wall=hard cover), making it nearly impossible for your slings to do jack against them.
b ) Get the defended obstacle bonus, so that anyone attacking them over the obstacle can only hit him on 6's.

As stated before, cannons are nearly useless against skaven (unless he was using it to try to pick off characters, which is pretty cheap). Now, lookk at your list. Slaves, clanrats and night runners. I know they're on my top 1000 list of most overpowered units (somewhere near 1000 :D ). You brought 1 rattling gun and 1 warlock engineer. That can't be called cheesey by any stretch of the imagination. Plague monks, well, they aren't exactly broken, but they are pretty cool. I don't know what you planned on doing with a WLC in 1200 points, but even that can't be called over powered by most.

Anyways, there may be some tactis that he failed, or that you took advantage of. Could you post a turn by turn (I'm sure you don't have it completely in you memory, but a best guess kind of thing).
Go forth my brethren, that we shall nibble at the roots of the old world!

We are the rats in the shadows. We hold the blades of corruption, aimed at the very heart of the Old World. We are The Council of Thirteen.

Second place in the UnderEmpire painting competition!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grey Seer Skitterflash
Unregistered

Quote:
 
What I came up with was that he's really inexperienced
actually, he's been playing same as me: 4 years. basicly, it went like this:

1 (me): Full speed ahead! (minus WLC) Magic: Fails to achieve anything, stom daemon runs out. Shooting: 2 dead hangunners (WLC)

1 (him): No movement. Magic: All his units immune to phsycology. Shooting: 2 dead night runners, the rest fleeing (mortar) no dead slaves despite being targeted by the entire unit of handgunners!!! :blink: (just thought I'd mention it) :D :D

2: Full movement, rat swarm charges cannon crew. Magic: Nothing. Shooting: 4 dead knights (ratling), 2 wounds lost on rat swarm (WLC) Combat: Nothing

2: detachment charges rat swarm, knights charge slaves *predictable him* :D
Magic: nothing Shooting: nothing :lol: combat: rat swarms hold, slaves fee +run down, opening the knights rear to ratling gun :lol: :P Dev

3: Plague monks charge huntsmen/ mortar, clanrats fail charge vs spearmen night runners fail to rally, flee off board :angry: Magic: Nothing!!! :angry: Shooting: 3 dead knights (ratling) 1 dead general (ratling :lol: ) last knight dead (WLC... overkill I know B) ) combat: rat swarm loses some wounds, plague monks crush and run down all opposition ;)

3: spearmen turn to face plague monks, who are now directly (and I mean directly!) next to them Magic: nothing. Shooting: 1 (only 1?)dead clanrat (handgunners) :P combat: rat swarm lose som more wounds :P .

4: Tunnelers arrive (finally!!) and charge mage, who flees. Redirect against deachment in combat. Also flees and are run down B) Clanrats charge fleeing mage, run her down and plough into the spearmans recently exposed flank
Quote:
 
spearmen turn to face plague monks, who are now directly (and I mean directly!) next to them
:lol: Plague monks turn to face spearmen. Magic: Finally! something! 4 dead handgunners!. Shooting: a blown up ratling gun (at least it lasted this long) :D Combat: flanked spearmen are run down! Cannon crew killed! (by swarm :D ) (This was the pivotal turn)

4: no movement , his only unit on the board being handgunners. Magic: none Shooting: 2 dead gutter runners, they pass panic. Combat: none

5: mopping up the handgunners with GR, Rswarm and Warp lightning (spell)

That's pretty much how it went
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verminous Fang
Member Avatar


OK then, he's not inexperienced, he just makes a lot of Rookie mistakes (the kind I made just a few months ago, and a few still creep in :D ).

So, you lost the storm deamon on the first turn. Gotta love the Skaven. :D

Well, maybe he doesn't play against Skaven much, because I can tell you that the Rats are just too fast to rely on stand back and shoot tactics. When Empire players beat me, it's because they use their movement phase to great effect. When they try to sit back and shoot me to bits, they lose.

The detachment charging the rat swarm was a good idea, but the knights charging the slaves wasn't. The handgunners shooting the slaves was also a waste. 18 handgunners (assuming that all can fire, which is likely false). They hit on 5's (-1 for range). So, on average, one third of the gunners hit. 6 hits. Needing 3's to wound means that a third of those hits will do nothing. On average, that much shooting kills 4 slaves, for a total of 8 points and no need for a panic check. A very bad idea, since they'll still be able to charge soon, and slaves can probably take handgunners in h2h (ranks and size, even if no wounds).

Quote:
 
Redirect against deachment in combat. Also flees and are run down


Skirmishers don't cause that panic test, and I didn't think you could choose to flee if you were in combat. Would that have changed much? Not in this game, but maybe in the rematch.

Although, it is becoming clear to me. He claimed that your army is over powered because you owned the close combat phase, mostly because he chose to not bring one. :P
Go forth my brethren, that we shall nibble at the roots of the old world!

We are the rats in the shadows. We hold the blades of corruption, aimed at the very heart of the Old World. We are The Council of Thirteen.

Second place in the UnderEmpire painting competition!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grey Seer Skitterflash
Unregistered

lol :lol: Hey also, I'm battling HE this weekend. his army list is somwhere on warroom forum. could you post some advice there?
Quote Post Goto Top
 
phordicus
Member Avatar
Battlemaster of Clan Skrikkik

Verminous Fang
Aug 3 2004, 04:15 AM
Quote:
 
Redirect against deachment in combat. Also flees and are run down


Skirmishers don't cause that panic test, and I didn't think you could choose to flee if you were in combat. Would that have changed much? Not in this game, but maybe in the rematch.

you have to take a panic test if you're already engaged in combat and you're charged in the flank or rear. may or may not need to be US5 or more. skirmishing doesn't affect this besides the usual not taking away ranks.
Posted Image
Skaveni primi, skaveni infiniti.
Posted Image
if you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword; but do not show your poem to one who is not a poet.

- japanese proverb
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verminous Fang
Member Avatar


OK, I stand corrected. But US 5 matters, and there must also be 5 models, so that new Korne chariot won't cause a panic test (but godbye unit anyways :D ).
Go forth my brethren, that we shall nibble at the roots of the old world!

We are the rats in the shadows. We hold the blades of corruption, aimed at the very heart of the Old World. We are The Council of Thirteen.

Second place in the UnderEmpire painting competition!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Learn More · Register for Free
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Skaven Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply