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Celtic rule out foreign takeover; something on the horizon?
Topic Started: Oct 21 2008, 05:17 PM (919 Views)
tigergerry
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Roseanne
Oct 22 2008, 11:53 AM
Doc67
Oct 22 2008, 12:46 PM
groucho bhoy
Oct 22 2008, 11:44 AM
Mainser
Oct 22 2008, 11:26 AM
groucho bhoy
Oct 22 2008, 11:16 AM
refuses to sell his shares

Have you got any concrete evidence to back that statement up? The deeds of the past few years, since Seville really, have pointed to the contrary.

the quote from him that says 'the one thing my children have said to me is that i'm not allowed to sell my celtic shares under any circumstances because they want them'.

not a direct quote, but that's the jist of it.

we're a plaything for rich weans!



"post when we're losin
you only post when we're losin
post when we're losin
you only post when we're losin"

:LOL: :clap:

I don't want some soulless tosser coming in with their money. We are not a plaything and never should be. We are already at the top in Scotland and have done it the honest way, not buying our way there the way the huns did in their 9IAR era. In Europe, we have competed and will do again. We have dished out some bloody noses to some pretty rich teams and I don't believe we've seen the last of it. Having mega millions didn't stop Chelscum dropping points to Cluj though and would bring us no guarantees.

HAIL HAIL

nice to see abit of a scrap between two tims on the forum but ill go along with rosie cos at the end of the day
we the fans are the custodians of our club and that cant ever change :huddle:
tigers gonna get ya
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Henke
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Roseanne
Oct 23 2008, 09:48 AM

That brings me back to the point I made about different people having differing expectations.  For a start, we'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of players because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on that.  If the players in our team in the last few seasons were only SPL quality then we wouldn't have seen CL football post Christmas.  You can't dismiss our progression in that competition as down to luck, we had to work to get there and we did it with players you are branding SPL quality.



I didn't say the entire team was SPL class though, did I?

In the last couple of seasons we have had guys like Boruc, Maloney, Nakamura, Samaras, JVoH, Jarosik and Aiden at times. Guys that carried us to numerous victories.

Especially Boruc and Nakamura. If Artur get's a long term injury or leaves, then we are pretty much fecked.

However, no-one can deny that the overall quality of the squad is poorer today than it was compared to the height of Martin's era, or indeed Strachan's first season in charge.

The quality of the playing staff is going backwards. That is an inalienable fact.

Also, whilst we have to compete with EPL clubs for players, we have done in the past and won and I don't see why today is any different. I think you do the status and reputation of Celtic FC a disservice. :D However, you have to be prepared to spend more money than currently is being spent and therein lies the problem. :rolleyes:

Personally I do have the patience to watch a player develop at Celtic. Say a Stan Petrov.

However, I don't have the patience to watch the likes of Lee Naylor, Massimo Donati, Mo Camara, Adam Virgo, Paul Telfer, Kenny Miller, Evander Sno, Steven Pressly, Paul Hartley, Jean-Joël Perrier-Doumbé, Dion fecking Dublin, Dui Wei :rofl: and Chris Killen, "develop" at Celtic Park.

Every signing a waste of a jersey and a helluva lot of money spunked up the wall. And evidence of course, of the wrong approach to signing players we currently have.

Now that is partly down to Strachan's incompetence as a manager, poor scouting and the meagre sums he has at his disposal. Except for Donati and Gravesen, both of whom were monumental feck ups on the managers part.

There is nothing I love to watch more than a youngster, whether homegrown or a Petrov type, come to the club and develop as players and people. We haven't seen that though in a long time. This needs to be done more often, which means looking in the right places. It;s a win win situation. If it doesn't work out then fair enough, it hasn't cost us much. If it does then even better. The player will have contributed to the Celtic cause and if they eventually want to leave, then we will make serious money on them.

I don't think it is much to ask for a mix of SPL standard players like I mentioned, along side up and comers in the Petrov mould, combined with a scattering of European class players.

A decent left back. A better quality striker than McDonald. And better centre halfs than we currently have. Guys who are comfortable playing in the CL.
In every hick town in Caledonia

Across this pseudo nation

You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation

Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination

You're hunbelievable



If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun
I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one
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Henke
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tigergerry
Oct 23 2008, 09:58 AM
Roseanne
Oct 22 2008, 11:53 AM
Doc67
Oct 22 2008, 12:46 PM
groucho bhoy
Oct 22 2008, 11:44 AM
Mainser
Oct 22 2008, 11:26 AM
groucho bhoy
Oct 22 2008, 11:16 AM
refuses to sell his shares

Have you got any concrete evidence to back that statement up? The deeds of the past few years, since Seville really, have pointed to the contrary.

the quote from him that says 'the one thing my children have said to me is that i'm not allowed to sell my celtic shares under any circumstances because they want them'.

not a direct quote, but that's the jist of it.

we're a plaything for rich weans!



"post when we're losin
you only post when we're losin
post when we're losin
you only post when we're losin"

:LOL: :clap:

I don't want some soulless tosser coming in with their money. We are not a plaything and never should be. We are already at the top in Scotland and have done it the honest way, not buying our way there the way the huns did in their 9IAR era. In Europe, we have competed and will do again. We have dished out some bloody noses to some pretty rich teams and I don't believe we've seen the last of it. Having mega millions didn't stop Chelscum dropping points to Cluj though and would bring us no guarantees.

HAIL HAIL

nice to see abit of a scrap between two tims on the forum but ill go along with rosie cos at the end of the day
we the fans are the custodians of our club and that cant ever change :huddle:

Oh yes it can Gerry.

Just look at Manure. Or MK Dons.

The way football is going, it can easily happen.
In every hick town in Caledonia

Across this pseudo nation

You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation

Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination

You're hunbelievable



If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun
I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one
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desachi
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First of all, what an excellent thread this has been. :clap:

Roseanne, you raise many issues, probably worthy of 2-3 threads, IMO. :thumbs.up:

The issue of structure is one that I work with all day long, so it is what I am interested in. There are well run associations and poorly run associations, and the same goes with PLCs. As I said earlier, I think we have a well run PLC, but to me that structure isn't right for Celtic to begin with.

Some of us were screaming this out when we could see the Whites and Kellys getting drummed out of Celtic Park, and some of us actually wrote to Celts for Change and other groups at the time offering alternative structures. Sadly, the will for a PLC had been firmly established by then and the off hand dismissal of alternative points of view was quite shocking.

Without wishing to get technical, there is no reason why Celtic could not be run in a manner similar to Barcelona. In general, they hold elections every year and supporters vote on what group or President they want in, allowing them to be a part of the direction of the future of the club. There is plenty of accountability that way and a way in which even those who can't manage to get to games (thanks to economics, circumstance or geography) can actually have a say in the running of the club. The club itself can be governed by a document outlining broad guidelines and the club can itself move in that direction. In this manner, funds can be raised, with the blessing of the support, a direction can be taken etc, and the interest levels will skyrocket.

The PLC structure is different. It isn't one vote for one person, it is one vote for one share, very different indeed. If there are people who want to invest in that manner, then I would suggest these were in the minority as very few people have the ability to invest to an extent that they can get a seat on the board. In my book this distinction is a big part of what makes Celtic different, a special case almost, from other football clubs. The PLC structure throws all of that out of the window. From an institution born to benefit the poor and needy, to a business designed to benefit the wealthy who can invest. Upside down for me.

As henke says quite rightly, it doesn't necessitate the spending of millions to improve on the first team, nor does it necessitate the poor treatment of a player who won't leave thanks to signing a non disclosure agreement, who happens to be honouring a contract offered to him by the club.

For me, an example of this whole gap between board and fans surrounds the rebel songs issue. The PLC need to remember what the club is all about and this is hard when all they surround themselves with is people who seem to have put their hands up and accepted defeat, or are in bed with them on the whole making money side of things. Rebel songs, the whole cultural thing, these are all part of what made Celtic what it is, without all of this cultural baggage, there would be no Celtic, so instead of pushing it to one side and playing some daft PR game, why not use this amazing fan base as a challenge to the status quo? Whether people agree with it or not, what is wrong with having the debate?

It is things like this that necessitate some representation of ordinary supporters on the board. Stakeholders if you will. Other companies do this as a matter of course. If you go to Germany or Japan you will regularly see diverse voices represented at board level, from unions to local residents groups. Those are companies with no pretension of being community based organisations. How can we simply overlook it and sell ourselves short by thinking we, as fans, wouldn't be able to contribute?

Why shouldn't we have a say in who is the public face of the club? Why shouldn't we be able to stand up and say that a person like John Reid might not be the best person to be Chairman? Or are we just nothing unless we have shares? Democracy, or dictatorship? Not much different from the Whites and the Kellys in that regard. This time round we get to ask questions once a year and see the (much better run) books.

I think we should have more. The only way it is going to change is if someone comes up with enough money to change the structure. That is the price we are going to have to pay for generations IMO.
In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing

HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC

Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High
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buckfasthero
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Damn you, Des :D

Was reading through this whole thread thinking 'no-one's mentioned Barcelona, can't wait to throw that example in' and then you go and raise it in the very last post. Thanks a lot.

You are, of course, spot on :thumbs.up:

In the UK people have been duped into accepting the myth that a football club can only be run as a business and that the ideal business structure is a PLC. It's utter bollox, but then that's what they'll have you believe. We had that war-mongering cunt (you heard me) patronising us at the AGM, saying we don't need a fan on the board as the board was already full of fans. Why were you appointed Mr Reid? Could it be because of an ID card scheme that Desmond pioneered and you pushed for in the House of Commons? Surely not, as our Dermot doesn't exert any influence over the running of the club :rolleyes:

Again it comes down to one man, one vote. I think the Barcelona system is fantastic and one we should be emulating. When Barca fans say they are 'more than just a football club' it's more than empty rhetoric.
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desachi
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It was amazing to me how quickly the Barcelona model was thrown out around the time of Fergus and Celts for Change. It honestly felt like the whole thing was being driven by money and the hunger to capitalise on the size of the Celtic market, with no careful thought given to alternative structures.

It is the nature of capitalism I suppose, short term gains are everything, and the hell with the long term. You can see where that thinking leads, we have an empire that is on the verge of collapse in the space of less than a century. Too much greed, and when it is applied to social institutions there is no reason why the same results will not come about. Value centralised and taken, punters annoyed and no sustainability at all.

Nothing wrong with some aspects of capitalism, it is a part of human nature after all, but surely appetites have to be restricted if it means a few get fat or powerful the the rest have nothing and no voice? :shrug:

Celtic will fall by the sword of this as well, no mistake, unless those who hold and carry the values of the club exercise some sway in proceedings. If they don't then it will just be another Man Utd (big appeal, stands for nothing anymore) and we will end up with an FC Celtic, playing Junior football to crowds of 20,000.

Pessimistic maybe, but can anyone here really see people being happy with the way things are if there is no change in the next 10 years? :unsure:
In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing

HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC

Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High
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Mainser
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Damn you BFH :D - I was going to say what you said re Barcelona too - and several other european clubs.

The simple facts for me are this:

PLC objective - maximise return for shareholders i.e. cash
Football objective - maximise returns for the team i.e trophies

Whilst the two are not always mutually exclusive, they very often come into conflict and Reid, MON, SSM and WGS have ALL said it and they represent, I would argue in totallity, all strands of opinion on this.

That's why the continental structure is better. All fans have a say and the executive is elected on a ticket of bringing success to the club, without jeopardising it - far less conflict than we currently suffer.

As a footnote - I have to say, great thread and an example of how debates should be carried out, no personal abuse, sticking to topic, but making firm points - without wishing to be patronising - well done, some ex-members could learn from this.
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Roseanne
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Henke
Oct 23 2008, 12:04 AM
Roseanne
Oct 23 2008, 09:48 AM

That brings me back to the point I made about different people having differing expectations.  For a start, we'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of players because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on that.  If the players in our team in the last few seasons were only SPL quality then we wouldn't have seen CL football post Christmas.  You can't dismiss our progression in that competition as down to luck, we had to work to get there and we did it with players you are branding SPL quality.



I didn't say the entire team was SPL class though, did I?

In the last couple of seasons we have had guys like Boruc, Maloney, Nakamura, Samaras, JVoH, Jarosik and Aiden at times. Guys that carried us to numerous victories.

Especially Boruc and Nakamura. If Artur get's a long term injury or leaves, then we are pretty much fecked.

However, no-one can deny that the overall quality of the squad is poorer today than it was compared to the height of Martin's era, or indeed Strachan's first season in charge.

The quality of the playing staff is going backwards. That is an inalienable fact.

Also, whilst we have to compete with EPL clubs for players, we have done in the past and won and I don't see why today is any different. I think you do the status and reputation of Celtic FC a disservice. :D However, you have to be prepared to spend more money than currently is being spent and therein lies the problem. :rolleyes:

Personally I do have the patience to watch a player develop at Celtic. Say a Stan Petrov.

However, I don't have the patience to watch the likes of Lee Naylor, Massimo Donati, Mo Camara, Adam Virgo, Paul Telfer, Kenny Miller, Evander Sno, Steven Pressly, Paul Hartley, Jean-Joël Perrier-Doumbé, Dion fecking Dublin, Dui Wei :rofl: and Chris Killen, "develop" at Celtic Park.

Every signing a waste of a jersey and a helluva lot of money spunked up the wall. And evidence of course, of the wrong approach to signing players we currently have.

Now that is partly down to Strachan's incompetence as a manager, poor scouting and the meagre sums he has at his disposal. Except for Donati and Gravesen, both of whom were monumental feck ups on the managers part.

There is nothing I love to watch more than a youngster, whether homegrown or a Petrov type, come to the club and develop as players and people. We haven't seen that though in a long time. This needs to be done more often, which means looking in the right places. It;s a win win situation. If it doesn't work out then fair enough, it hasn't cost us much. If it does then even better. The player will have contributed to the Celtic cause and if they eventually want to leave, then we will make serious money on them.

I don't think it is much to ask for a mix of SPL standard players like I mentioned, along side up and comers in the Petrov mould, combined with a scattering of European class players.

A decent left back. A better quality striker than McDonald. And better centre halfs than we currently have. Guys who are comfortable playing in the CL.

No you didn't but you did come away with a large list of players you deem SPL quality only and I've already said that they can't be if they are part of the teams that have got us progress in the CL. Our progression was not just down to the players you mention, obviously, they contributed massively but the whole team had a part to play.

There has been less money spent than when MON came, again you cannot say the quality has declined when we are making progress and you cannot say we are not making progress when we have gone from a team who collapsed on Black Sunday to be rebuilt in the following seasons and win three titles in a row as well as making progress in the CL.

We spent more money in the MON era. Spent millions on the likes of Hartson and Sutton. Do not get me wrong, they were worth every penny. But they were not part of the team who has got us to the last 16 twice. Again, that is not a criticism as MON's teams were desperately close to qualifying on two of the three occasions we competed in the groups. That they didn't qualify in no way makes them lesser players but they are gone now and we could not sustain the same sort of spending to replace them, so we spent less. What we have seen in our players helping us to progress is that spending big money does not guarantee success. I know you're not advocating spending tens of millions on one player but, even if we spent more, you can't guarantee that we would have success any better than we have had to date. We can't just spend for the sake of spending so, if a player is getting greedy and wants a wage that doesn't agree with what we think he is worry then, sorry, but I will trust the folk scouting these players every time.

You mentioned Gravesen. I think you are being grossly unfair on WGS. When Gravesen was in signing talks, it was met with unbelievable excitement. It didn't work out, as it turned out, because Gravesen had psychological issues that only came to light after he left Celtic. I don't know if you read the interview, I can't remember who it was with but it was a guy that Gravesen kept in regular contact with and then suddenly stopped, the interview was posted on KDS a while back. Now, I'd sincerely hope you are not going to start blaming WGS for Gravesen's mental state. :blink:

HAIL HAIL
:ynwa: Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. :ynwa:

Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :love: :pmsl:
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Roseanne
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desachi
Oct 23 2008, 12:14 AM
First of all, what an excellent thread this has been.  :clap:

Roseanne, you raise many issues, probably worthy of 2-3 threads, IMO.  :thumbs.up:

The issue of structure is one that I work with all day long, so it is what I am interested in. There are well run associations and poorly run associations, and the same goes with PLCs. As I said earlier, I think we have a well run PLC, but to me that structure isn't right for Celtic to begin with.

Some of us were screaming this out when we could see the Whites and Kellys getting drummed out of Celtic Park, and some of us actually wrote to Celts for Change and other groups at the time offering alternative structures. Sadly, the will for a PLC had been firmly established by then and the off hand dismissal of alternative points of view was quite shocking.

Without wishing to get technical, there is no reason why Celtic could not be run in a manner similar to Barcelona. In general, they hold elections every year and supporters vote on what group or President they want in, allowing them to be a part of the direction of the future of the club. There is plenty of accountability that way and a way in which even those who can't manage to get to games (thanks to economics, circumstance or geography) can actually have a say in the running of the club. The club itself can be governed by a document outlining broad guidelines and the club can itself move in that direction. In this manner, funds can be raised, with the blessing of the support, a direction can be taken etc, and the interest levels will skyrocket.

The PLC structure is different. It isn't one vote for one person, it is one vote for one share, very different indeed. If there are people who want to invest in that manner, then I would suggest these were in the minority as very few people have the ability to invest to an extent that they can get a seat on the board. In my book this distinction is a big part of what makes Celtic different, a special case almost, from other football clubs. The PLC structure throws all of that out of the window. From an institution born to benefit the poor and needy, to a business designed to benefit the wealthy who can invest. Upside down for me.

As henke says quite rightly, it doesn't necessitate the spending of millions to improve on the first team, nor does it necessitate the poor treatment of a player who won't leave thanks to signing a non disclosure agreement, who happens to be honouring a contract offered to him by the club.

For me, an example of this whole gap between board and fans surrounds the rebel songs issue. The PLC need to remember what the club is all about and this is hard when all they surround themselves with is people who seem to have put their hands up and accepted defeat, or are in bed with them on the whole making money side of things. Rebel songs, the whole cultural thing, these are all part of what made Celtic what it is, without all of this cultural baggage, there would be no Celtic, so instead of pushing it to one side and playing some daft PR game, why not use this amazing fan base as a challenge to the status quo? Whether people agree with it or not, what is wrong with having the debate?

It is things like this that necessitate some representation of ordinary supporters on the board. Stakeholders if you will. Other companies do this as a matter of course. If you go to Germany or Japan you will regularly see diverse voices represented at board level, from unions to local residents groups. Those are companies with no pretension of being community based organisations. How can we simply overlook it and sell ourselves short by thinking we, as fans, wouldn't be able to contribute?

Why shouldn't we have a say in who is the public face of the club? Why shouldn't we be able to stand up and say that a person like John Reid might not be the best person to be Chairman? Or are we just nothing unless we have shares? Democracy, or dictatorship? Not much different from the Whites and the Kellys in that regard. This time round we get to ask questions once a year and see the (much better run) books.

I think we should have more. The only way it is going to change is if someone comes up with enough money to change the structure. That is the price we are going to have to pay for generations IMO.

You make some valid points mhate. :thumbs.up:

I tried to blot out as much of the bad bits as I could of the 90s so don't know the ins and outs of how the PLC structure was decided. Knowing McCann though, he has come in and bailed us out and said that's the way he wanted the club set up? I know I wasn't arguing with him because without him we wouldn't be here today. I also know he wouldn't mince his words and if he thought something was for the best, that was the way it was to be done.

I pray we never come upon another time where we have to force change the way the Celts for Change group did because it means things have got pretty terrible to say the least. I don't know what other circumstance there could be a change to the set up though. Unless maybe enough people spoke up at the AGM. :unsure:

I don't profess to know a lot, well anything, about the set up at Barca other than they have a president that is elected, that is as much as I know. If the idea was muted here, there may be some reasons for it but I'm willing to bet there would be cons as well as pros.

I don't think the club has become just another business though. The Celtic Charitable Arm since it's inception has raised a lot of money for good causes and there was a special edition of the Celtic View last week about the In The Pink day designed to raise awareness of breast cancer and encouraging people to get involved. So I don't think they have in any way forgotten the initial reason they were formed. :thumbs.up:

HAIL HAIL
:ynwa: Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. :ynwa:

Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :love: :pmsl:
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Henke
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Rosie,

The guys I have mentioned are SPL class. There isn't one European team or EPL that has ever or would ever look at them. It doesn't mean they are totally shite players. Just that they are not good enough to compete with the top, top level teams in Europe.

However, we need guys like that in the team as we are never going to have a team full of world class footballers. However, you need a balance and without a doubt, we have fewer European class players today than we have had in the recent past. Strachan has turned us into a SPL team. A squad bloated with squad players. Never mind comparing Strachan's team with say MON's. Our present team isn't as good as Strachan's first couple of teams!!! And that is saying something.

And you are honestly telling me that our present team hasn't declined from MON's era, or indeed Strachan's early teams? :yikes: Sorry, but that;s nonsense. We are going backwards. Everyone can see it. Even Strachan.

As for Gravesen, of course that is Strachan's fault. everybody in Europe knew/knows he is a mental case. A total fecking looney. Real couldn't wait to get shot of him and I can't remember any other team being in for him other than us. That tells you everything. Strachan and his scouts didn't research that particular signing adequately enough. The same can be said about Donati.

You have to do more than watch a couple of DVD's of a player before you shell out millions of pounds on him. Look at somebody like Alec Ferguson. He looks into every aspect of a potential signings life before he takes the plunge. Which is why he rarely makes a poor signing.

In every hick town in Caledonia

Across this pseudo nation

You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation

Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination

You're hunbelievable



If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun
I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one
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Roseanne
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Henke
Oct 23 2008, 11:24 PM
Rosie,

The guys I have mentioned are SPL class.  There isn't one European team or EPL that has ever or would ever look at them.  It doesn't mean they are totally shite players.  Just that they are not good enough to compete with the top, top level teams in Europe. 

However, we need guys like that in the team as we are never going to have a team full of world class footballers.  However, you need a balance and without a doubt, we have fewer European class players today than we have had in the recent past.  Strachan has turned us into a SPL team.  A squad bloated with squad players. Never mind comparing Strachan's team with say MON's.  Our present team isn't as good as Strachan's first couple of teams!!!  And that is saying something.

And you are honestly telling me that our present team hasn't declined from MON's era, or indeed Strachan's early teams?  :yikes:  Sorry, but that;s nonsense.  We are going backwards.  Everyone can see it.  Even Strachan.

As for Gravesen, of course that is Strachan's fault.  everybody in Europe knew/knows he is a mental case.  A total fecking looney.  Real couldn't wait to get shot of him and I can't remember any other team being in for him other than us.  That tells you everything.  Strachan and his scouts didn't research that particular signing adequately enough.  The same can be said about Donati. 

You have to do more than watch a couple of DVD's of a player before you shell out millions of pounds on him.  Look at somebody like Alec Ferguson.  He looks into every aspect of a potential signings life before he takes the plunge.  Which is why he rarely makes a poor signing.

Mhate, we are an SPL team and that is what you have to realise. Unless or until we get out of this backwater league that is what we are stuck with.

You mentioned guys like Sammy, Hesselink and Aiden. Well, Sammy and Hesselink are out of action right now, we are also unlucky enough to have our other striking options apart from Skippy out. The fact is, if you consider Hesselink and Sammy as being European class players, which I do as I do all the players who have contributed in our CL progress, then you have to realise we will struggle to get other players of similar quality not only to come to Scotland, they might come, but will they be happy to not be playing every week? Aiden came through the youth academy, this academy is in place with a view to bringing other players through who, hopefully, will have the talent to make it at Celtic, some will make it, some won't.

I wasn't really comparing our team/squad with MON's or any other manager because I hate doing that and try to avoid it, I just stated the irrefutable fact that they hadn't got to the last 16 of the CL. They also never managed more than a point away from home so that is not a new problem either.

You say I am talking nonsense but then you come away with a statement saying this team isn't as good as WGS's first team. Well, that is nonsense. We have not gone backwards, we have won three titles, the last one coming with the challenge a lot of people were wanting to see if WGS could rise to, well he did. And do not dare try and write it off as lucky or to do with the huns Euro run or fixture congestion because, in our Seville season, unlike the huns, we were behind in the league as we progressed to the UEFA final. WE were behind and had the extra fixtures, we managed to at least give them a hell of a fright by running them to the wire oh and putting on more of a show in Seville than they managed in Manchester, unless you count rioting as putting on a show! Last season, they were in a final and had a seven point, one game in hand start in the title run in. They are athletes, they should have been able to cope and that they couldn't and collapsed is not our problem.

I have never heard WGS even insinuate we have gone backwards. I have heard him say that we can't spend the way we used to, that is a fact and not something he can be castigated for.

As to your point on Gravesen, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you're not meaning to be insensitive but do you have any idea what mental illness is like and what damage it can do? I hope not mhate, I really, really hope not! Gravesen is not a "mental case", a "total fecking loony" and never has been, he has serious mental health issues that need addressed. Going on what his contact says, when he signed for Celtic, he was not in such a state where what happened could be foreseen. Something went in his head for whatever reason and he stopped speaking to anyone, even this contact that he had always spoken to before.

Unless you have an inside knowledge of what goes on at Celtic, you don't know how WGS and the scouts make judgements on players. WGS sees players every day in training, he goes to watch games and we have scouts that go to watch games and look at possible players within our price range.
:ynwa: Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. :ynwa:

Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :love: :pmsl:
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Henke
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Well, if you can't see that this team has gone backwards, then I really don't know what to say to you. :unsure:

We were very lucky last season to win the league. Our form was abysmal. We were rudderless for the most part. And we were lucky that the huns we distracted. We put together a good run in, but barring that we were terrible.

And I am fairly aware that we are a SPL team. I alreadty said we need shitey SPL players. That is a necessity. It is pretty clear what our present team needs to turn it from a run of the mill SPL team that get's it's are felt in Europe by everybody and anybody. Buy, a left back, a centre half and a central midfielder. And make sure when you do, don't buy them from Hibs/Motherwell etc, unless they are a total standout. Don't buy more squad players. Buy players for these vital positions that are first team players. Gyus who will wak into the team and already improve it.

Not asking for much.

As for Strachan knowing we have went backwards. Just watch the Manure game again and look at his fizzer during the second half. He know's it alright.

We competed at OT two years ago. This time we had our trousers pulled down and the red devil raped us.

If you think GS and his scouts are doing a good job on the singing front. I am happy for you. I wish I could blind myself like that, as I would be a lot happier. ;) However the reality of the situation is they are not. How else do you explain Strachan's pretty horrible record in the transfer market?

And as for that nutcase Gravesen? Well, I can assure you I know all about mental illness. It was merely a case of one mental case being called that by another. You do your research correctly and it becomes apparent who should be signed and who shouldn't.
In every hick town in Caledonia

Across this pseudo nation

You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation

Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination

You're hunbelievable



If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun
I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one
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Roseanne
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We neither need nor have "shitey SPL players". We have players who have helped us progress as a team.

We do not get our arses felt by everyone and anyone. Only Man U and Benfica have beaten us recently by significant margins. And by significant I mean no less than by three goals. And even then, two of Man U's "goals" were offside. Assuming everything else had been equal the other night and the correct decisions were made, it should have been no worse than a 2-0 defeat but, even then, I believe the entire direction of the game could have changed had those goals not stood. It's something we'll never know however.

And sorry but you are the one talking nonense if you think last season was down to luck. I see you've had the good grace to acknowlege that we put a good run of wins together, had we failed it would have been lights out no matter what the huns did, that they collapsed was not our problem and takes nothing away from the title we won - the third in a row!

I saw his "fizzer", he was disappointed that we were losing, what do you expect? I don't need to explain his "horrible" record because I don't think it has been horrible. Signings that haven't worked have been moved on, some we've even made some money on.

Well, I too know about mental illness and don't like being labeled a mental case, I'm pretty sure Gravesen wouldn't. Not everyone feels comfortable with labels like that.

I don't know what else to say to you. I don't doubt you have Celtic's interests at heart but, personally, if I was that angry all the time, I'd be worried. Someone asked me on KDS if I could blame people for despairing, well, personally, I wouldn't judge but I never feel despair following Celtic, maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know. :unsure:

HAIL HAIL
:ynwa: Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. :ynwa:

Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :love: :pmsl:
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Henke
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Oh I am very chilled Roseanne. What do you think I go around glaring at folk and shouting and balling? :rofl:

There are just several things that myself and a vast majority of the Celtic support aren't happy about. And that is what makes me proud to be a Celtic supporter. That there are plenty of us who when things aren't right, will speak up about them. :huddle:

And yes, we do have shitey SPL players. How else would you describe players like Naylor, Caldwell, Donati, McManus, Hartley, Wilson, and former players like Pressley, Virgo, Miller, Riordan, Sno etc....

All players with different strengths and weaknesses, but the one thing they all have in common, is that their "level" is the SPL. And that is why have found it extremely difficult to "compete" with anybody in Europe for a while now. Our recent record/form in the CL is embarrassing.

And I'll say it again. Last season was all down to luck. We were awful apart form the last couple of games. Anybody with eyes can see that Rosie.

Explain to me then why his transfer record isn't horrible then? I could give you a list of players the length of my arm that back that statement up.

And as for the mental illness thing. Phrases like that bother you. They don't bother me. Where's the problem?
In every hick town in Caledonia

Across this pseudo nation

You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation

Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination

You're hunbelievable



If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun
I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one
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buckfasthero
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Did I just read Henke classify Riordan as 'shitey' ? :D
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