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| Celtic rule out foreign takeover; something on the horizon? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 21 2008, 05:17 PM (920 Views) | |
| Henke | Oct 22 2008, 11:57 AM Post #16 |
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Instead we are in the unique position of being the plaything of a multi-millionaire, who pretty much dictates everything involved at the club, but without the massive investment, due to our status as a PLC. The worst of both worlds. |
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In every hick town in Caledonia Across this pseudo nation You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination You're hunbelievable If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one | |
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| Doc67 | Oct 22 2008, 12:01 PM Post #17 |
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the joke thread is in the other section Grouch!
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Good to be back! | |
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| Mainser | Oct 22 2008, 12:54 PM Post #18 |
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I have heard that rumour, but NEVER seen it substantiated anywhere - I believe that actions speak louder than words and the actions since 03 are preparation to sell. I am not saying you are not right GB - I am merely asking to see it for myself. doubtingthomas.csc |
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| desachi | Oct 22 2008, 02:47 PM Post #19 |
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walking barefoot
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I, too, think that everything we have seen from the last few years is that this is a club being fattened for the sale so to speak. Anytime any organisation (that is listed) starts to clean up its debt means just this in the vast majority of cases. As for not wanting some "soulless tosser" in charge of the club, sorry Roseanne, but how is that any different from what we have at the moment? Desmond is first and foremost a business man and money will come first. Of course he could have invested his money anywhere, but no matter what, he would not have invested his money in a place where he was onto a loser, so I would have thought he fully expects to sell up. The appointment of his lackey/yes man as Chairman (remember the position was not opened up to applicants) would indicate that he now has two of the three ingredients ready to facilitate a sale of the club to whoever, control of the most possible shares he can have and control of the board who will make any decision. After the appointment of WGS, a manager that is willing to cut budgets and spend very little, I think all indicators are that the strategy is to sell sell sell but at the right price. Desmond has played a strategic blinder on this one since Seville. Of course the beauty of it relies on us the fans sticking our noses out of those lofty places. Job done so far, only waiting on the right price. In that respect, Celtic becoming a PLC means we are very much at the mercy of those who have large amounts of capital at their disposal, and that is exactly what is happening. Hate to be right about this one, but this is what some of us (albeit only a handful of us) were going on about when Fergus McCann showed up on the scene. The scenario has unfolded and now we will see what the next person will look like when he shows up on the scene. |
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In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king. All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High | |
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| Roseanne | Oct 22 2008, 04:27 PM Post #20 |
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We aren't anybody's plaything. We are run as a business because that is what we are whether you or anyone else likes it or not. It's not just down to DD to put his hand in his pocket, in fact, as far as I know, he can't just pump money in at will. It is a PLC as you say, there are rules. |
Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. ![]() Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :pmsl:
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| desachi | Oct 22 2008, 05:39 PM Post #21 |
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walking barefoot
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Which actually raises the valid point here. :thumbs.up: Is the PLC the correct structure for a football club when the result is what we see today? I think we have to be realistic about it. You are quite right what you say about this not being the sole responsibility of Desmond, but at the same time, a balance must be struck between the money men and the supporters. I for one don't buy Reid's line of "we are all supporters" round the Board room table, and I wouldn't think anyone who has a vested interest financially in the club is able to discount that when they sit around the table. As we are a PLC, and there are rules to follow, surely it stands to reason that the people who are in charge of the club are interested in following those rules? Since the main purpose of a PLC is to increase value for the shareholders then would it not follow on that this is what their remit is? The football team is only one element of this (albeit a core one). There is a difference between running Celtic as a business and running it as a football club. Plenty of common ground but these are not the same thing and never have been. Should the club be run profitably? No doubt. Should it be run to make a massive return for investors? Not at the expense of the team. I support Celtic and not the PLC. I don't cheer for the suits who sit around the board table sipping their whiskey really well, I cheer for the team. I would go on to say that the suits have a great responsibility and honour sitting where they are, following in the footsteps of Brother Walfrid et al. Just as we expect honesty and effort for those who pull on the hoops and who sit in the dugout so too should those who sit behind the scenes offer the same commitment to the Celtic heritage. Can anyone say that of the current lot? You may argue that has never been the case, but today, in theory at least, the way it has been sold, we have some sort of accountability... don't we? :unsure: |
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In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king. All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High | |
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| Roseanne | Oct 22 2008, 08:29 PM Post #22 |
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What we have is worlds different to what Chelsea, Man City or any other team with an egomaniac owner has. For a start, DD doesn't own the club outright, he is not interested in owning it outright as he said to the CSA in an interview he gave a good while back. He is a majority shareholder who has invested enough to have a right to be in that position. He doesn't take to do with the running day to day of the club, that's down to Lawell and Reid. Basic corporate governance good practice, not one egomaniac running the show but a Chairman and a Chief Exec the positions of which are held by different people, as it should be. He has never denied he is a businessman but, if he was solely interested in not losing out, football isn't the best of investments. Saying that, he had an interest IIRC in Man U, which he thought nothing of selling when the Glazers came calling because, according to him, the investment was financial only and not emotional. Do you honestly think, if he sold up tomorrow, he'd get back what he has put in? Did he not underwrite a large chunk of the last share issue because it wasn't fully subscribed? He isn't duty bound to keep pumping money in and we shouldn't be expecting him to. We are trying to live within our means, I'd rather do that than run the risk of there being no Celtic in the future. I don't think he expects to sell up either. In the same interview I mentioned above (a good few years ago now admittedly) he stated that he had no intention of selling his shares and that "his children would decide what happened to them". My impression then being that he would leave the shares to his children in his will. I have read nothing today that makes me think that he is intending to sell. Reid is just reiterating that we will not succumb to the idea of letting some sort of sugar daddy take over. Maybe DD has received an offer, he doesn't have to accept though. Not having a go btw mhate, I just think people read things and then read too much into them. :thumbs.up: HAIL HAIL |
Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. ![]() Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :pmsl:
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| Roseanne | Oct 22 2008, 08:47 PM Post #23 |
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I won't bore you with more Corporate Governance speak. But what I mentioned in my last reply to you about the Chairman/Chief Exec positions is only one example of what is considered best practice, there are a whole host of other things and PLCs being public companies have to be seen to be run properly. It is certainly a better set-up than when the show was run by the Whites and the Kellys.Football clubs are different, I agree with you on that point. They attract emotions that other organisations don't. These emotions can get in the way of making sensible decisions. Hell, I can't go to Glasgow without going to the superstore or one of the other shops, folk in the superstore even remember me now. :LOL: Imagine for a second then if somehow I got into a position where I could influence the running of the club be that the football side or the board side. I can honestly tell you now I wouldn't have the objectivity to be able to take the decision my head says is the right one. I'd be thinking like a supporter and that is dangerous when, as I said, we are being run as a business. You question the credentials of those charged with running the club. Me? I tend to believe they just have the discipline to think like businessmen and not supporters when they are making business decisions. I'm sure our board would love to shell out millions and bring in big name players but they can't. So they have to decide the best way to deploy our funds. Not an easy thing to do when there isn't a lot.Their remit is to increase value for shareholders but they won't do that if they make the wrong decision with regard to use of funds. People talk about speculating to accumulate and to an extent we have to take some risks and we do, every time we enter the transfer market. Shareholders have to accept that there is a higher risk investing in shares (of any company) than, for example, sticking their money in a bank. But there is only so much risk they will be willing to accept without demanding a higher rate of return on their investment. |
Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. ![]() Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :pmsl:
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| desachi | Oct 22 2008, 09:01 PM Post #24 |
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walking barefoot
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Fair points all Roseanne. No offence taken in any manner, always happy to be discussing the issues. :thumbs.up: I too have never been an advocate of moving away from good practise in running any organisation but there are ways in which this can be done. Additionally, I have said on many an occasion that I think the PLC has been run well, and I fully believe that. Whether that is good for Celtic and what I believe Celtic to be is another question altogether. As I have said in many earlier posts, I support the team not the PLC. Much of what is considered "good governance" is linked heavily to what structures are in place and what the overall aim of the organisation is. The question I ask myself time and time again is whether those in positions of power share the same goals as people like me. I am not sure they do, and to be honest, it is their responsibility, "custodians" as they are, to prove that to me. I remain to be convinced. With regards to Desmond's investment, I actually find very little to disagree with in your post. That said, just because Desmond isn't an "Abramovic" with the ego and all that comes with that level of control doesn't mean he is daft enough not to exert his influence on the club. 30% of ownership is a massive amount of control in any organisation, and in the PLC it is the maximum one individual can own without actually changing the nature of the organisation itself. So none of us should be fooled by the numbers here. I actually don't want him to put in more money. In an ideal world, I want him to be able to exert the same influence over the club as someone who owns 0.03% of it, or someone who has no ownership but simply attends games. It is as simple as that. To me a football club should be run as a members association. His money is for whatever he wants to do with it and I agree with you it is not, and should not be, his sole responsibility to push money into the club. That said, in purely business terms, looking at the club, the debt etc, it would be reasonable to assume that the PLC is being ripened for sale. These sets of circumstances do not come about by accident, this has been part of the strategic planning for the last few years, and we are entering a period that is all about making the PLC look like a tidy wee investment. That is what business people do, they buy cheap and sell dear. In my mind, there is no doubt whatsoever that Desmond will benefit from his investment in Celtic from a financial standpoint, be that through prestige, alliances and mergers through sponsorship or through using board appointments to return favours done by people in the past. If he stood to make a loss from it then he will find a way to offset the loss for tax purposes, so it is not as if he hasn't planned this thing through. Routine stuff for business folk and their accountants. There is no way this can be some altruistic gesture on his behalf that we should applaud. We should see him for what he is, in spite of the skilful way in which he uses the media. Is it so hard to believe he is in it for the money? :unsure: |
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In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king. All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High | |
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| desachi | Oct 22 2008, 09:07 PM Post #25 |
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Just saw your other reply to my other post there. :thumbs.up: Somehow the post I just made seemed to cover what I wanted to say for that one as well. One thing though, you mentioned the Whites and the Kellys. Why should our ambition be limited to "oh it is better than it used be?" Surely we should want the best situation for the club and not just one that is only marginally different from the terrible one that we were in. ![]() Supporters with discipline? It can be done. There is a whole lot of talent in the Celtic support, and plenty of discipline. Sometimes when you are emotionally invested you try harder. A bit like the players who have the honour and privilege of pulling on the hoops. :thumbs.up: |
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In the nation of the blind the one eyed man is king. All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing HWEUCSC & Chicago CSC Buena Vista Celtic Club, Keeping the Green Flag Flying High | |
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| Henke | Oct 22 2008, 09:49 PM Post #26 |
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Everybody knows Desmond can't just pump in money, I already said that myself, but he has the authority and the last say on most things of a man who can. Like I said, the worst of both worlds. We get the dictator, without the money. The current set up doesn't have the interests of playing side of the club at the forefront. I hope to feck he sells up, as we need a change and the current "Absentee Landlord" set up is a joke and is damaging the quality of the team. Maintaining the quality of the playing staff my arse! :angry: |
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In every hick town in Caledonia Across this pseudo nation You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination You're hunbelievable If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one | |
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| Henke | Oct 22 2008, 10:22 PM Post #27 |
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Kwality Des. :thumbs.up: The quality of the playing side has most certainly suffered due to the suits. for want of a better term, financial strategy of recent times. All we ask for is, realistic investment. Investment that shows AMBITION! (My favourite word, eh Des?) That hasn't been forthcoming, for, well, pretty much the last few years of Martin's reign and pretty much, most of Strachan's. Our net spend, compared to what we take in, over the last 5/6 years has been a joke and has seen a steady decline in the quality of the team. Depressing so it is. |
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In every hick town in Caledonia Across this pseudo nation You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination You're hunbelievable If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one | |
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| Roseanne | Oct 22 2008, 10:30 PM Post #28 |
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:thumbs.up:
To me, if it is run well, the PLC is good for Celtic. To answer your question about the Whites and Kellys, the only reason I mentioned them is that they illustrate my point about how dangerous it can be to have your "owners" and "custodians" being the same people, I'm not saying that sort of set-up never works in business but it certainly was not good for Celtic as we nearly found out in catastrophic fashion before McCann bailed us out. Of course we should continually look to get better absolutely but we have to constantly be mindful of where we nearly went as well.
Again, and I realise people can have different impressions, I never got that impression from his interview (I'll try to find a link to that, it was a good interview!). He isn't and wasn't interested in owning the club outright and on trying to control everything, he seemed pretty sincere when he said that. Again though, different people might have different opinions.
I don't think that is realistic though. When you buy shares, it is subject to a lot of risks not just within the company but the stock market in general. If I was the sort to go down that road, I'd be expecting more influence I took the risk of investing in more shares. If your proposal was to come to pass, you'd get folk like me exerting influence over the club and, believe me, you do not want that for the good of Celtic. :LOL: You know yourself, every fan has expectations. Since MON transformed our fortunes so dramatically, the bar has been raised enormously. Whereas we were struggling to get near to winning the league (stopping 10 aside) before he came, now we're disappointed if we lose 3-0 to Man United at Old Trafford. When I say we, I don't necessarily mean every supporter here because that is my next point, every supporter has different expectations. What happens if we all have the power to exert influence, the same influence, over the club but we can't agree. I don't know a huge amount about the different set ups but, by members associations I am assuming you mean that you'd like it run like a members club, like for example a CSC? I've been to a few of my CSC's AGMs now and the disagreements over the damnedest things are unbelievable. Can you imagine that, on a grander scale, at a club the size of Celtic? ![]() I've noticed you said you support the team not the PLC. I might be taking you too literally here and, if so, apologies. :thumbs.up: But I support the team on the park, as you do, I also support the PLC in the sense that I want the best people in place to make a decision. That's why, if a new director is appointed, I am as interested as if a new player has signed. I also support the work done in the youth set ups to bring through new talent as another example. As to your point about the debt etc, that has been brought down and has made the business healthier. That doesn't have to be with a view to sell though. It could just be to protect us from continuing down a route, which was just unsustainable in our current climate. I noticed as well in the article you quoted: "But we would like access to a bigger platform, whether in Europe or outside Scotland or whatever." I think we all know the EPL will never happen (though I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed in but it's pretty much a dead duck I think!). But that doesn't mean we might not have a chance at some other type of league, an Atlantic League or something else. I seem to remember it mentioned that the huns would struggle to get into the EPL if we had got a chance to go down that route because of their massive debt. I don't know if there is some sort of condition if you do join a league with regards to financial position but I'd imagine there would be something. It makes our business look like it is run on a financially sound basis if we are keeping the debt as low as possible thereby increasing profits by reducing the interest burden. A big part of why sponsors are interested is down to our stability as a business IMO. It would not do their reputations much good if they are associated with badly run organisations.
I've no doubt he does benefit and I don't think he would ever deny that. But what I got from his interview was that he intended to hand his Celtic shares down to his children. |
Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. ![]() Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :pmsl:
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| Henke | Oct 22 2008, 10:32 PM Post #29 |
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He has final say on most things Roseanne, including the hiring of the last two managers. In fact, he was responsible for the last two managers. For someone who doesn't control the club outright, he has far too much say in what goes on at the club. He is just a shareholder, like you and me, albeit the major shareholder. As for investment in players form the club itself? Nobody is expecting Cristiano Ronaldo to satrt looking at houses in Bothwell. We just expect a better quality of player that the likes of Naylor, Hartley, McDonald, Robson, Caldwell, McManus, Wilson. All of who are SPL quality players (with the exception of Naylor who should be playing Junior fitba') nothing more, nothing less. The club could easily invest more in the playing staff than it has been for several years, without putting the club at risk. |
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In every hick town in Caledonia Across this pseudo nation You can see the most fucked up scum that was ever shat into creation Where a blue McEwan's lager top equals no imagination You're hunbelievable If you're having cash problems I feel bad for you hun I've got 99 problems but tax ain't one | |
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| Roseanne | Oct 22 2008, 10:48 PM Post #30 |
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That brings me back to the point I made about different people having differing expectations. For a start, we'll have to agree to disagree on the quality of players because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on that. If the players in our team in the last few seasons were only SPL quality then we wouldn't have seen CL football post Christmas. You can't dismiss our progression in that competition as down to luck, we had to work to get there and we did it with players you are branding SPL quality. It is not just about money, it is about enticing players to come here. We have players who have been willing to do that because they are wanting the chance of winning trophies. The sad fact is that, with their free money from Sky, even lower reach EPL teams can outbid us on players (transfer fees and wages) for players who may well be good enough to play in Scotland but don't give a damn about anything other than the size of their pay packet. Bearing in mind what I've just said where do we get "CL quality" players (whatever that means)? Bearing in mind that if they are of "CL quality", Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and any of the top Spanish and Italian clubs could outbid us God knows how many times over on players. You say you're not after a player like Ronaldo looking for a place in Bothwell. Even someone between that and what we have, we'd have to pick up pretty bloody quick when they are still unknown quantities because you can bet the vultures for other richer leagues would be circling at the sign of any degree of promise. Question is, do people have the patience to let these "unknown quantities" develop? |
Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever. ![]() Caldwell.......McDonald.........VENNEGOOR OF HESSELINK :pmsl:
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Celtic in my heart, in my life, forever.
:pmsl:
I can honestly tell you now I wouldn't have the objectivity to be able to take the decision my head says is the right one. I'd be thinking like a supporter and that is dangerous when, as I said, we are being run as a business. You question the credentials of those charged with running the club. Me? I tend to believe they just have the discipline to think like businessmen and not supporters when they are making business decisions. I'm sure our board would love to shell out millions and bring in big name players but they can't. So they have to decide the best way to deploy our funds. Not an easy thing to do when there isn't a lot.
