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colts release marvin
Topic Started: Feb 24 2009, 10:25 PM (339 Views)
Ram Jam
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Also, I'm winning. Just like Jake. :shifty:
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JetBlack3
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wow this battle is surely epic
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McLarenCrazy
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I'm not so much defending Cutler well yeah a little bit. All I'm saying is I think you are giving too much credit for Jake Plummer getting the wins and too much laid upon Jay Cutler for getting the losses. His entire career with the Cardinals is summed up by a 9-7 season with a playoff victory over the cowboys and one great season with Denver. You can talk about how he (Plummer) got a couple 10-6 seasons in his 8th and 9th years, but Cutler is only 2 wins away from that going into his 3rd full season with a team with no defense.
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Ram Jam
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I'm not giving Plummer anything more than I'm taking from Jay. The Denver defense has been terrible ever since they won the Super Bowls, and it gets worse every year. However the line and receivers Jay has are a big upgrade over Plummers and that has to be considered. And the Cardinals comparison is rediculous. That team was horrible from top to bottom. From management to waterboy. So comparing them to a team like the Broncos with some talent (especially on the offensive side) is like apples and oranges. Besides it's not like Denver had that bad of a schedule this year. The division was at it's lowest point in a long time and he still couldn't capitalize. It's not like Plummer got exponentially better between year 5 and year 6 he went to a better team in Denver. Cutler is not going to get exponentially better in the next few years either, so the whole 8th-9th season to 2nd-3rd season argument isn't as important as it seems. Look at Flacco, look at Rothlesberger. Experience helps, but it isn't the end all be all. Rookies play excellent sometimes and veterans play like rookies should. Having a good team around you is the main component, Cutler has a comparable team overall to Plummer and he isn't putting up the same record.
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Ram Jam
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Now before we go any further I don't want anyone to think I don't want Cutler as a qb. Do I think it would of been better to leave Plummer in there for a few more years while Cutler learned? Yes. But Cutler is probably one of the best in the league today. I also think Leinart has talent enough to be as good, but maybe not the surrounding cast that Jay does outside of Fitzgerald and Boldin (if they don't trade him).
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McLarenCrazy
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First off maybe if you want to look at scheme and coaching the Cardinals weren't as good but as far as defense this year I'm not sure Denver wasn't as bad. Okay Brandon Marshall is better than Frank Sanders who was Plummer's best guy in Arizona but as for the rest of the team no big difference. The Broncos line is better than the Cardinals or at least they will be but as for right now they are young and making mistakes that cause sacks and forced passes, as did the bad O-line the Cardinals had. Eddie Royal came out hot but he was average down the back stretch and Scheffler was hurt a lot this season so there isn't a whole lot of difference for the two teams except the Cardinals did have a 1,000 yd rusher. Not only that, the team that Jake took over from Griese was much better than the first year team Cutler got so that argument isn't justified.

Also yes I agree teams do often make rookies or vets look good or bad. Let's look at this Flacco and Roethlisberger argument Flacco started off rough then got his feet under him and played well up to the playoffs. First game against Miami he played well didn't overextend himself, but when he played the Steelers he looked lost and was making mistakes and bad throws (some due to the line) others were just his fault. Roethlisberger on the other hand as a rookie or first year player will tell you he played poorly in his first superbowl but they got away with it. This year how did he do with more experience really he started off average and got in some trouble in the second and third quarters but when the fourth quarter came around he was moving out of the pocket buying ridiculous amounts of time for Santonio to get open and he really showed off his progression as a player and that is what I'm saying Cutler needs.

I am with you in saying that Cutler was not ready to replace Plummer when he did but that doesn't mean he can't surpass what Plummer did in Denver because all in all it wasn't all that great. I mean all he has to do is take them through a playoff bye and a divisional round win and then he will have done everything Plummer ever did for them.
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JetBlack3
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I have no idea how yall are comin up wth this much junk on those 2. Its impressive
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McLarenCrazy
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Did he just reorder posts? No I guess mine didn't refresh.
Edited by McLarenCrazy, Feb 27 2009, 02:03 PM.
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McLarenCrazy
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The Cardinals just went to the superbowl. So other than Warner if Leinhart is there shouldn't they be better than the Broncos besides just Fitzgerald and Boldin.

Well regardless Warner still wants to be a Cardinal but he has apparently talked to another team in the NFC just don't know who. (oops that supposed to be in the FA thread well it was relevant)
Edited by McLarenCrazy, Feb 27 2009, 02:01 PM.
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Ram Jam
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Eddie Royal wasn't average down the backstretch, he was hurt for something like 4-6 weeks that's why you never heard of him till the end of the season. When he came back he was still very productive and much better than whatever the Cards had 10 years ago.

I said Denver's defense and the Cards defense were equally terrible.

The line didn't play that terrible I don't think. They didn't runblock especially well, but the pass blocking was ok for the most part. Plummer on the other hand was always running for his life in Arizona. As a matter of fact the line Cutler has now is probably better than the one Plummer had at the end because of the new blood.

As for Griese's team being better than the one Cutler got that is not true. By the time Jake took over for Griese all of the big names had left and the team they had was essentially the same so I don't see why it isn't justified. In the last 2 years they have made some personnel moves that are mostly side steps and even tried marginal upgrades that haven't worked out. The only big chages were defensive coordinator.

I agree that is what Cutler needs and is starting to do, but Jake already did the rollout on a regular basis to buy the receivers more time.

I hope he does pass everything Plummer did, but at this point it's all hope and potential. Arguing what he has done compared what Jake did is what is not justified. He may only have to win a divisional round game, but until he does he still hasn't accomplished as much. But saying Jake didn't do anything great because he didn't win a Super Bowl is like saying Jim Kelly or Dan Marino or any of a 100 other great qb's didn't do anything great just because they didn't win. In the end result you may be right, but at least the did come close, that's better than a lot of guys with such potential did.
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McLarenCrazy
Feb 27 2009, 01:59 PM
The Cardinals just went to the superbowl. So other than Warner if Leinhart is there shouldn't they be better than the Broncos besides just Fitzgerald and Boldin.

Well regardless Warner still wants to be a Cardinal but he has apparently talked to another team in the NFC just don't know who. (oops that supposed to be in the FA thread well it was relevant)
Not really, they had to go through who in the NFC playoffs as opposed to Pittsburgh, New England, Indy, Baltimore, and Miami. Carolina, Philly and the Giants?
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McLarenCrazy
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Whoa whoa someone is stretchin on that last one Marino and Kelly had many great seasons a decade or more not just one or two. I just disagree with you on the fact that Cutler's team was as good as the one Plummer had when he came to Denver I mean all of the big names hadn't left and the ones that weren't huge names were of better quality than many on the Broncos now. Not only that but the lack of respect/trust the team had in Shanahan's methods was still present in Plummer's time but a lot of the team was ready for a change (according to reports) and that his coaching methods weren't reaching the team, especially this year which really will affect how the team plays.

Also the fact that Eddie Royal was hurt puts him there with Scheffler so basically Cutler was going with a older Stokely and Brandon Marshall for 1/4 or so of the season which is closer to the level Plummer was on. Add in some disfunctional leadership issues with the team and Shanahan and its looking about the same.

I mean I guess yeah you can't compare Cutler to Plummer in that regard because they haven't played as many seasons equally or in the same franchise (whole career). However, by comparing Plummer to Cutler through their first three years they are similar now Cutler may have had some advantages with slightly better receivers (I actually do remember Frank Sanders though). So, we went and compared their first 2 or so years in Denver and the numbers and wins aren't that far off. We may disagree on the quality of the team that each took over but it is 2 wins either way. Yet it was not the same as comparing him to Plummer as it was comparing Plummer to two HOF players, one reason because Plummer left too early and two because we were taking chunks their careers as equal as we could get them.

I mean if Cutler has a couple or few more seasons like the last one and the team around him has improved then I will say you were right that he's not as good as Plummer.
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Ram Jam
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Oh I wasn't comparing Plummer to Marino or Kelly, I mean I love Jake Plummer, but he wasn't Hall Of Fame good. What I was comparing was you saying Jake accomplished nothing. If he accomplished nothing, then neither did they because Marino's playoff success is similar to Jake despite being a better qb.

But the few big names still there were 3 or 4 years older than their Super Bowl run and were close to retirement. There are still some of the same no name guys there that Jake had or similar quality ones. Some like Boss Bailey and DJ Williams are even better than who they had (well in theory on Boss).

Most of the team probably vented their frustration at Jake instead of Shanahan at that time, but once he was gone the real problem started to be exposed.

Also 2 wins means a lot. 2 wins this year and I consider the season a big success all things considered. If the team around him improves I believe he will be what everyone thinks he could be. He had to try to hard this year and force things that weren't there, if he could get some pressure off his shoulders he could be really good and hopefully he will surpass what Plummer did no matter how much it was. If you remember at the beginning of the season I was a big cheerleader for Cutler I expected big things from him and he started off great, but eventually everything crumbled around him. If they can get a decent team together this offseason I will be looking forward to him next season getting even better, but at the rate they are going with bringing in average running backs and below average safeties nothing seems to be changing.
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McLarenCrazy
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See I disagree on the playoff success of Marino because he went many times over a extended period compared to Jake going twice, once with denver. Now if we are comparing rings then ugh yeah Marino is there with plenty of others.

Yeah I just though you had pretty much written Cutler off considering what he had to work with, and although we may disagree on the team in Denver for both of them. I mean the team Cutler took was older than some of the guys Plummer took except for some rookies like you said with D.J. and well let's hope Boss pans out.

Oh and yeah there free agency right now is kinda lookin bleak but it can pick up lot of guys still left.

Finally 2 wins is huge, shoot I was hoping for 2 more wins for buffalo or 2 wins for Miami in the playoffs (actually 4 haha) what I was trying to say is I don't think that Cutler will have any problem getting those two or even three extra wins in the next couple seasons.
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Ram Jam
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Jake went to the playoffs 3 of the 4 years he was in Denver though, and even in the last one they were on the verge of another trip when he was benched and then they nose dived. Because Cutler had nobody to help him and was a rookie on top of that.

Outside of Champ all the older guys that have been there are gone or aren't starting anymore. Denver is a fairly young team that could have promise. And like you're saying he could get a lot better over the next couple seasons especially if they get him some help, but so far he hasn't had any more success than Plummer. And yet everyone comes down on Plummer when the same issues Cutler is having are the same Jake had then.
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