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| Mosque at Ground Zero? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 14 2010, 05:02 PM (1,283 Views) | |
| TheEyebrow | Aug 14 2010, 05:02 PM Post #1 |
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![]() Let them build it who gives a fuck! Symbolism is for pussies! |
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| Jawa | Aug 14 2010, 10:29 PM Post #2 |
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Grand Elder
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More than great coats! |
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"SEXYEDDIE" EddieJ1984: i love readun books "sexyeddie"eddiej1984: Plus i like to stare into her eyes while i fuck her "TheEyebrow" theeyebrow: when life gives you lemons, jack off into the lemons and eat them | |
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| CanadianCrippler | Aug 14 2010, 11:27 PM Post #3 |
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"Fuck 'em" |
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| The Wizard of Goz | Aug 15 2010, 05:31 AM Post #4 |
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FWO Suxxx!
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I love Greg Gutfeld's (from Red Eye) idea to build a gay bar for Islamic men right next door to it. He just wants to cater to that group of people living in Manhattan, like the investors for this Mosque. |
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| Gandy | Aug 15 2010, 10:00 AM Post #5 |
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Are you implying the funders of the Mosque shouldn't be targeting NYC Muslims? |
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| The Wizard of Goz | Aug 15 2010, 10:16 AM Post #6 |
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FWO Suxxx!
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Hey I just like the idea. The people in that area need a good gay bar. Or would that Mosque have a problem with it?
Edited by The Wizard of Goz, Aug 15 2010, 10:19 AM.
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| Gandy | Aug 15 2010, 01:05 PM Post #7 |
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BLANK
Edited by Gandy, Aug 15 2010, 01:11 PM.
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| USCHAMP | Aug 16 2010, 05:19 AM Post #8 |
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I honestly don't see the problem people are making about all of this. They aren't trying to build a mosque directly on the smoldering ashes of the WTC, the proposed site is a few blocks away from Ground Zero. If Ground Zero is such a sacred site that a XXblock radius around it is considered hollow then people should be up in arms over the 14 Starbucks that are likely to spring up overnight. What pisses me off about all this (because normally I wouldn't even care) is Sarah Palin's ignorant ass. I dunno what kind of constitution she has in Alaskaville, but apparently it's one for a Big Brother type, Totalitarian Dictatorship that doesn't grant the civil liberties and freedoms the US Constitution protects. She is the epitome of everything I despise and having AOL I constantly get these Conservative biased articles that suck her metaphorical dick. Oh the President is upholding the constitution and protecting Amercian's civil liberties despite what personal feeling he may have??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF OBAMA!!! |
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| TheEyebrow | Aug 16 2010, 12:47 PM Post #9 |
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These recent conservatives are some of the worst most selfish people on Earth. They talk big about the constitution but when they don't like a religion, they want to steal people's rights away. When there are immigrants they don't like, they try abolishing the 14th amendment. The Palin crew is the worst of the worst, there's absolutely no principled plan involved, just bitterness and pettiness. Real conservatives need to take back their party or they'll never stand a chance in America again. |
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| The Wizard of Goz | Aug 17 2010, 09:42 PM Post #10 |
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FWO Suxxx!
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Boy there's a lot of trashing conservatives going on. Allow me to argue a point of view against the Mosque. I'm not sure if its the "conservative" argument you all have heard but its certainly not the most liberal: As Americans, we are always taught to be tolerant and sensitive to other people's beliefs. Our constitution allows for freedom of religion, and I think for the most part the country has done a good job upholding that freedom. I mean, even in prisons we give people the right to worship in any manner they'd like. 9/11 happened. Nothing can change that, and it was carried out in the name of Islam. For years we have been sensitive to people's religious beliefs, and now we have people who want to build a Mosque in proximity to the grounds where a senseless act of violence against innocent people took place in the name of that religion. It offends some of the people who were effected negatively by the attack. So how about these investors show some sensitivity back and not do something that will offend the people of NYC? |
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| USCHAMP | Aug 17 2010, 11:55 PM Post #11 |
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It was planned and executed by not just a fundamentalist ground of Muslims, but by an EXTREMIST sect of people who I don't even see as belonging to the same religion that is mainstream Islam. In America when there is a small extremist group who labels themselves Christians and teach from the Bible, but go off the deep end and hole themselves up in isolation from the rest of society and teach prophetic messages that condemn and damns the way mainstream society lives day to day, we label those people as crazy and as being a cult. I honestly think there is nothing wrong with a person being a fundamentalist of whatever religion they subscribe to, it just means you take a more literal interpretation to the religious text. But while we label those crazy people here who clearly don't represent the religion or America as a nation in any way, people look at the exact same thing happening in the middle east and for whatever reason we associate that tiny extremist sect with the rest of the religion which just isn't right. When was the last time you saw any media outlet use the world cult when referring to extremist "Muslims", but they won't hesitate to drop that appropriate label on those extremist "Christians". I guess a story is easier for FOX News to sell if they have a bad guy to point at that every half brained person who watches their conservative biased programming can understand and it's easier for them to point at all brown people with turbans. Well FOX News tried to put out a semi-accurate story once, but this is what happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY |
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| TheEyebrow | Aug 18 2010, 12:01 AM Post #12 |
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I understand that argument Goz, but also reject it. You're claiming 9/11 happened in the name of Islam. That's a personal belief though; those who want to establish the Islamic center claim 9/11 was done in the name of violence under the guise of Islam. As an atheist, I could take an even broader view than yours and say it was done in the name of religion. So that's my first point; the central principle of 9/11 isn't set in stone as 'Islam'. As such, how does one establish what the right thing to do is? As you mentioned, only some of the people affected by 9/11 are offended, not all. So are we supposed to agree on some threshold percentage wherein if say 50% or less of affected people are offended, it's ok to move on with construction near Ground Zero? Imagine me the atheist being one of the affected persons and claiming that a church offends me as, per my argument earlier, 9/11 was done in the name of religion? Do church leaders have to ask me for permission in the future before they build a church? It would be silly for them to require my permission. At some point the church leaders should be willing to reject my argument as unsubstantiated and move on. Otherwise they are at the mercy of my opinion for the rest of their lives. And just as it's ok for a priest to reject my argument that 9/11=Religion as too broad an argument, I think it's ok for the imam to reject the argument that 9/11=Islam as too broad also. Further, have NYCers or 9/11 families been polled about every other building that's been constructed near Ground Zero since the attack? If not, then why should public opinion matter now? Edited by TheEyebrow, Aug 18 2010, 12:02 AM.
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| USCHAMP | Aug 18 2010, 05:19 AM Post #13 |
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This reminds me of a little count I did a couple weeks ago. I drove over to the small town I used to live in from the small town I live in now. Between my house and my friends house that is by my old neighborhood I counted 20 churches exactly that you could see from the road, that doesn't include the signs for churches that were right off the road that I couldn't actually see if it did the could would be at least 10 higher. 20 churches in less than 15 miles seems like a shit ton to me, but I do live in the heart of the Bible Belt. What was funny about these churches was that most of them were Protestant, mostly Baptist, with a few Methodist most of which I believe are Southern Methodist, but I didn't really get that detailed in my count which I may do in the future. If you didn't know the reason the Southern Methodist church split from the union of Methodist churches in 1940 was because of strongly segregationist Southerners who opposed the Methodist church's stance on allowing everyone to worship side by side, regardless of race. Although of the Souther Methodist Church's official website in the history section gives a less racially charged reason: "The Birmingham General Conference in 1938 decided to enter into a union with the Methodist Episcopal Church and the Methodist Protestant Church. When the three were formally united in 1939, there were many in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South who refused to enter into the union because of the modernistic tendencies found in the United Church. A layman's organization for the preservation of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South was formed and culminated in a convocation in Columbia, South Carolina, on January 14, 1940, at which four hundred (400) representatives of the Church set up a provisional plan for preserving the Church. The courts granted to the United Church all properties and the control of the name, Methodist Episcopal Church, South. The dauntless few, maintaining their earnest convictions to perpetuate true Methodism and fundamental doctrines, organized the South Carolina Conference." Apparently "true Methodism and fundamental doctrines" means "NO COLOREDS ALLOWED!", but to each his own I guess. I'm sure most people who attend Southern Methodist churches either aren't aware or feel that segregation wasn't the real reason for splitting. I can remember throughout my years in school when the Civil War was mentioned in a history book it gave all these social and economic reasons for the war other than slavery and if it did list slavery as a reason, it was wayyyy down the list and discarded as a minor reason. It wasn't until 10th grade when I had a black history teacher that showed a video on the Civil War and it pretty much called it like it was and gave slavery the main reason for the South's succession. Someone asked him what that was all about and he told us about how people in at the AL BoE and JeffCoEd (the county education board) had final say on everything taught and what was and wasn't included in textbooks and even went as far as to take certain liberties on certain sensitive subjects. He said how when he taught up north (I can't remember what state, but it was one in the midwest if I remember correctly) the textbooks gave the reason of the Civil War as slavery and all the other disagreements between the north and the south that also contributed to the war were all in one way or another because of slavery. So almost 140 years after the Civil War ended slavery is such a touchy subjects to some people down here they find the need to sugar coat and cover up something that seems so insignificant, but worse than that it leads to misinformation among impressionable school age children. I can see why they would omit something like evolution down here though, the sentiments on that subject run pretty deep as evidenced by my 20 church count. When we were in middle school we had an Ecology teacher that I'm not even sure was an atheist and I really don't even know how it came up, but somehow it got out he believed in evolution. It probably didn't help his cause that he dressed like Bill Nye's crazier brother, but that guy got so much shit from 7th and 8th grade kids, MIDDLE SCHOOL FUCKING KIDS WERE OPENLY AND TO HIS FACE CHALLENGING, QUESTIONING AND RIDICULING HIM. On more than one occasion he got shit for being an atheist and like I said I don't remember him ever saying anything, and I'm pretty sure he avoiding saying anything, about his personal religious beliefs. This one kid that was so red that David Allan Coe could have been his uncle brought a Bible one day and said something along the lines of his monkey ass should give it a read and that he didn't come from no monkey and proceeded to leave the Bible on the desk. This was in front of the whole class and at the time I didn't really see how awesome this was, but the teacher continued sitting, smiled, picked it up and said he has read it cover to cover and enjoyed it, said he'd read it again, thanked the kid for the gift and then put it away in his desk. But that teacher was into crackpot ideas like recycling, protecting the environment and conserving power so what the hell did he know. These are the kind of fundamentalist, old school train of thinking that dominates the southern population, but I feel like the overall level of tolerance is rising with each new generation. Eventually I think, and this will probably take another hundred years at least, the racist way of thinking will fade from the south until it's just a blip in the history books. A kid's parents can drill racist ideals into their children as much as they want, but since the overall social climate has changed since they were kids and their son might sit next to a black person in class they will at some time realize that people are the same across the board. As we move further from the time when someone's parents could have grown up in a time of public segregation the memories of their parents hate will slowly, generation, by generation, vanish from the general public down here. My grandparents grew up in the 20s and 30s and are nice and pretty tolerant, but last time I went to church with them my grandma introduced me to a black lady as her colored friend and when they were at my house a few months ago I was watching the History Channel when a commercial came on for a show that had JFK and MLK in it. My grandpa from out of nowhere launched into a tirade praising Kennedy for messing around with Monroe and that he was killed by Castro because he liked blacks and about MLK he said "that dumb monkey deserved to get shot stirring up all them people; the government did it because he was gonna be president and they didn't want that." My grandma asked why he said that, but I dunno if she was talking about JFK or MLK. Anyway my parents are totally different people and have always taught tolerance and equality, probably spurned on by their general ill feeling towards my grandparents, but probably because that even though they grew up in that environment, they matured and developed their own opinions. My parents still retain that old school southern conservative viewpoint, though, but they have always encouraged me to collect the facts and form my own opinion on that sort of thing. So in being removed 2 generations from segregation (my parents were both born in '67 so they grew up in the 70s and 80s and were on their own by 17) the animosity that my grandparents once felt, even though it might not totally be there anymore, has all but disappeared in their grandchildren, is gone in their great grandchildren and when their great grandchildren are old enough to think for themselves they will probably only know racism in either a history book or in what they see on tv of the people who lived in the woods like extremists and passed on their old ways to their children and them to theirs and so on. The only problem with that is that everyone who grew up, you know, IN THE WORLD AND NOT IN A CABIN IN MONTANTA AND FORCED TO INTERBREED, see these people as a joke and laugh at their crazy diatribe instead of either fearing it or taking it seriously. This doesn't just apply to white people, but as the generations pass blacks will also lose that feeling their grandparents rightfully had of being victimized and holding that grudge and passing it down the family tree. Until this mutual feeling of ill will is bred out of the population, that racial tension that both races hold towards each other will manifest itself in small ways of mistrust, even if that person only feels that way subconsciously and isn't intentionally displaying racist behavior ie. a white person feeling uneasy around a group of black youth or a black person feeling that a white person isn't treating them fairly solely because they're black. |
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| Gandy | Aug 18 2010, 10:40 AM Post #14 |
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Tim, does that mean you would agree we should bulldoze every Christian Church and anything that mentions Jesus Christ within the vicinity of the Olympic Grounds in Atlanta? The 1996 bombings were carried out by "Christian Patriots". How about bulldozing every church near an abortion clinic that has been the target of christian terrorism? |
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| TomAss | Aug 18 2010, 10:45 AM Post #15 |
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Religion is OK as long as its Christian. |
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| The Wizard of Goz | Aug 18 2010, 01:12 PM Post #16 |
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FWO Suxxx!
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Lets not get into a pissing match about "how many people offended is enough," cause that is just arguing semantics. The fact of the matter is in this country, even if you've fucked up and killed a person and are jailed, we are still sensitive enough to your religious beliefs that you can worship in any manner you please. Nowhere in my argument does it say the muslim investors need to "ask permission" or "poll NYCers" because they don't, but how about they show a little sensitivity back and accept the offer from the city to build elsewhere. But hey, Greg Gutfeld doesn't have to ask for permission either to build a gay bar next door to this mosque. He doesn't have to be sensitive to the fact that Islam forbids homosexuality if these investors don't care that their symbol of the religion hurts or offends people who knew victims of the attack. So if that's how they want to play it, they can't complain when the shoe is on the other foot. |
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| The Wizard of Goz | Aug 18 2010, 01:28 PM Post #17 |
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We have no legal right to tell the investors of the Mosque they can't build there, just like we have no right to bulldoze a Church, sweet cheeks. Maybe the Churches in that area, if they don't agree with terrorism of abortion clinics should reach out to them and let them know that "hey, we don't agree with your views, but we don't agree with violence either." Now that would be an act of sensitivity that would make those offended feel better. How about the investors take the deal offered by the city (that BENEFITS them) as a way of saying "hey, thanks for the religious freedoms, we'll sacrifice one location to not offend the people of the city we look to service." That or the clinics can just make huge billboards of dead fetuses so the churches in the area are offended. Fight fire with fire. |
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| TheEyebrow | Aug 18 2010, 01:47 PM Post #18 |
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It's not arguing semantics, it's trying to understand your argument. We already decided standards as a society and call them laws. This center has passed that test. What you, and other opposition forces, are asking for is yet ANOTHER standard which you call 'sensitivity'. It's not my fault you brought up this non-standard standard, so why is it my fault for asking how you define it? But fine, if you're not going to answer, then I suppose you'll accept whatever answer I give. To me, sensitivity requires you have to be approved by .001% of the population. They pass that test, so what's the problem? And don't say that .001% isn't high enough, why that's just semantics. Now I agree with your second paragraph, which you'd mentioned earlier. You know I don't give a fuck if they put a gay strip club next to the Islamic center, I don't give a fuck about anything so long as it's legal. My goal here is not to appease Muslims or anything, it's to say that the law is the law and everything else is a stupid worthless fucking opinion that shouldn't be involved at all in decision-making (other than as they relate to the owner's personal business/organizational decisions). So opposition to the Islamic center should shut up, and opposition from the Muslims to a gay bar should shut up too. This is America, where we have a right to religion, not a right to comfort, and definitely not a right to decide who gets to live near you. |
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| CanadianCrippler | Aug 18 2010, 01:55 PM Post #19 |
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Fly a plane into a building (or hut) over "there", then try to build a church around it. |
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| TheEyebrow | Aug 18 2010, 02:34 PM Post #20 |
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See I don't like that argument A1. This is one of those times in life when you can, with all sincerity and confidence, say that you're better than someone. We are better than Saudi Arabia for our religious freedom, we just plain are. And we're definitely better than Al Qaeda who hates everything and aint got nothin on No Mercy (i'm all for a flame war; them mofos deserve it). We're better than Israel for it too while we're at it! America's awesome because it doesn't give a shit about what you want to be. I know it sounds cliché, but I really do think that's how the terrorists 'win', when they start changing us and make us throw away very good principles. Let's have a little ego here! USA! USA! |
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