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Proposition 19
Topic Started: Aug 3 2010, 01:27 PM (849 Views)
Silo
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NM Legend
TheEyebrow
Aug 10 2010, 12:22 PM
Quote:
 
How realistic is it to think Europeans, or Mexicans for that matter, are going to travel across the entire Atlantic ocean for marijuana? Not likely at all.


I just said it was already rising. Western Europeans now do more coke than Americans. Where does coke come from? The Americas. How bout amphetamine use? Also on the rise in Europe. Where's it coming from? "The number of clandestine laboratories involved in the manufacture of amphetamine-type stimulants has increased by 20 percent in 2008. The information on the 8,432 detected laboratories came from 31 countries, with the largest numbers reported from Mexico, the United States, Canada, the Czech Republic, Australia, China, Slovakia, and New Zealand." All this from http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/37961/



Quote:
 
Again, these cartel/gang members have no other choice. I had, and made other choices, like getting a 9-5 with full benefits. My situation and these cartel members situations are so far apart I don't understand why you keep trying to compare the two.



You say that, but where's the proof? I've asked for any cases where drugs were legalized and kidnappings went up, and you've yet to cite one. I've at least cited the Netherlands, Switzerland, Denver, and Oakland as places where drug laws were relaxed and kidnappings did not rise. You seem to think Mexicans are so poor and desperate that they'd destroy their own humanity for a few bucks. Drug dealing doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't send you to hell. Kidnapping does. Mexico isn't some super backwater, it's the 13th largest economy in the world. There are other job choices, like agriculture, textiles, or immigrating to the US, even illegally. It just seems weird, and a little elitist, to insinuate that it's somehow logical to switch from drug selling to kidnapping, and then say that logic doesn't apply to you. There are far poorer places than Mexico in this world, and kidnapping isn't the number one profession anywhere. You seem to think that once someone is earning less than 15 bucks an hour, they'll do absolutely anything for money. I have to ask, if indeed you were Mexican, and had the same job prospects as an average Mexican, would you start kidnapping? My answer is a firm and absolute no, even if it did mean I had to live a much shittier life than I do now.


Referring to guns:
Quote:
 
And that's how America should be?


It's how America is.


Quote:
 
And there's the CIA, FBI, SWAT, The Wire's crew, etc., but do you see major crimes across America dying out? The only way to cure this cartel problem is to treat it as serious as we treat Afghanistan and Iraq terrorists, because that's exactly what they are. But we all know King Barry wouldn't want to offend illegal immigrants by requiring them to carry papers on them, so this won't happen anytime soon.

So you believe that if Proposition 19 is passed, there will be a decrease in the amount of kidnappings in Pheonix. Ok, I completely disagree with you but that's what time will tell, if it ever passes. The reason you don't see a lot of kidnappings in American cities is because our police forces will be sent in full forces to get these children back. We can't send Pheonix police to Mexico to enforce American laws.


You say the CIA, FBI, SWAT don't work, and then say the reason you don't see this in America is cause of police forces. It's gotta be one or the other. If you want to deal with kidnappings by treating them like terrorism, I'm all for it. But that requires funding, which can be acquired by getting rid of drug enforcement activities.

Assuming you're right, and the kidnapping numbers do initially rise, enough attention would be put on it that we could target it. And if we wanted to send troops down to Mexico, we not only could, but Calderon would shit his pants with joy about it. They don't have the means to deal with these gangs, why would they keep us out? I'm not claiming once Prop 19 passes every single kidnapping stops. I'm claiming that it's already a recognized problem, and that once agencies no longer have to look for drug dealers, they can look for more kidnappers. Once the gangs feel this pressure and it's mixed with the lack of drug funding, I think they'll stop trying to cross the border for either reason.
<<I just said it was already rising. Western Europeans now do more coke than Americans. Where does coke come from? The Americas. How bout amphetamine use? Also on the rise in Europe. Where's it coming from? "The number of clandestine laboratories involved in the manufacture of amphetamine-type stimulants has increased by 20 percent in 2008. The information on the 8,432 detected laboratories came from 31 countries, with the largest numbers reported from Mexico, the United States, Canada, the Czech Republic, Australia, China, Slovakia, and New Zealand." All this from http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/37961/>>

First, cocaine comes from South America, not even in our continent. Second, 90% of the world's heroin supply comes straight out of Afghanistan so there goes the amphetamine argument. To think theepochtimes.com is aware of every drug laboratory in the world is kinda mind boggling, don't ya think? Anyway, this is about marijuana. Marijuana grown from these Mexicans is not even top of the line strands like Purple Haze, White Widow, etc., which are found all over the world and specifically Amsterdam, which is a European country.

<<
You say that, but where's the proof? I've asked for any cases where drugs were legalized and kidnappings went up, and you've yet to cite one. I've at least cited the Netherlands, Switzerland, Denver, and Oakland as places where drug laws were relaxed and kidnappings did not rise. You seem to think Mexicans are so poor and desperate that they'd destroy their own humanity for a few bucks. Drug dealing doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't send you to hell. Kidnapping does. Mexico isn't some super backwater, it's the 13th largest economy in the world. There are other job choices, like agriculture, textiles, or immigrating to the US, even illegally. It just seems weird, and a little elitist, to insinuate that it's somehow logical to switch from drug selling to kidnapping, and then say that logic doesn't apply to you. There are far poorer places than Mexico in this world, and kidnapping isn't the number one profession anywhere. You seem to think that once someone is earning less than 15 bucks an hour, they'll do absolutely anything for money. I have to ask, if indeed you were Mexican, and had the same job prospects as an average Mexican, would you start kidnapping? My answer is a firm and absolute no, even if it did mean I had to live a much shittier life than I do now. >>

Why would Denver, Oakland, etc., resort to kidnappings when they are Americans with more job opportunities? These cartel members, for the majority, are ruthless killers who do not care about human life. Mexico's #1 cash crop is marijuana. Cartel members who did not participate in kidnappings will be forced to find a new way of making money and kidnapping is already on the rise, and Pheonix is the kidnapping capitol. Are all drugdealers bad people? No, but the majority of those cartel members do weild AK-47's on a daily basis and are not scared to pull the trigger on anyone. I'm not saying that every drugdealing cartel member is going to suddenly change their profession to kidnapping, I'm saying there will be an increase in the number of kidnapping of American children. Do you really believe that there are not kidnappings of middle-class children by people from poor countries? What would be the point of kidnapping a broke family's kid anyway? 15 bucks an hour is a goldmine compared to the peso's most of those families make a day. I personally wouldn't resort to kidnapping people, but who am I to say that when I've never been through the lifestyle and upbringings those people have?

<<It's how America is>>

Since when did suburban Americans need to walk their children to school with guns? Not until recently in Pheonix.

<<You say the CIA, FBI, SWAT don't work, and then say the reason you don't see this in America is cause of police forces. It's gotta be one or the other. If you want to deal with kidnappings by treating them like terrorism, I'm all for it. But that requires funding, which can be acquired by getting rid of drug enforcement activities.

Assuming you're right, and the kidnapping numbers do initially rise, enough attention would be put on it that we could target it. And if we wanted to send troops down to Mexico, we not only could, but Calderon would shit his pants with joy about it. They don't have the means to deal with these gangs, why would they keep us out? I'm not claiming once Prop 19 passes every single kidnapping stops. I'm claiming that it's already a recognized problem, and that once agencies no longer have to look for drug dealers, they can look for more kidnappers. Once the gangs feel this pressure and it's mixed with the lack of drug funding, I think they'll stop trying to cross the border for either reason.>>

I didn't say they didn't work, I said the # of major crimes associated with these units has not decreased because of them. I'd love to think that once people already involved in criminal activity, after having their market wiped out, would settle down and look for real jobs that pay in peso's, requiring harder work, but that's just not how I view this situation. The #'s are already peaking at a record level of kidnappings. It's such an easy crime to commit like I previously described, and such a high payout, that I personally don't think it will ever be settled with effectively unless Barry decides to send some troops down there. But c'mon, we both know that's not going to happen.
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TomAss
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TheEyebrow
Aug 10 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:
 
And that's how America should be?


It's how America is.

It's America, man. You gotta let 'em play.
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