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In NYC Politics, Drug Dealers > Cops
Topic Started: Jan 21 2010, 07:31 PM (436 Views)
The Wizard of Goz
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1/18/09 - A Queens community board that approved the renaming of a street for police shooting victim Sean Bell has outraged the family of a fallen cop by refusing to grant the same honor to the slain officer.

Adding fuel to the controversy, the chairwoman of Community Board 12 suggested this week that risking one's life in the line of duty is part of a cop's job and that an officer's death doesn't necessarily warrant a street renaming.

"For every police officer that puts on a uniform and carries a gun, if they should perish in the line of duty, does that mean we have to rename a street after them?" Adjoa Gzifa told the Daily News when asked about a recently submitted proposal to honor NYPD Officer John Scarangella, killed in the line of duty almost 29 years ago.

Gzifa, 63, has been consistent in opposing street renamings for local notables. She was one of only two Community Board 12 members who voted against renaming part of Liverpool St. in Jamaica for Bell.

Renamings have "gotten out of hand," she said. "There are so many other ways to honor someone's name without putting it on a street sign."

Family and fellow NYPD officers first submitted their renaming request for a part of Baisley Blvd. in front of the 113th Precinct in 2006. That proposal was rejected because it did not meet "local criteria," Gzifa said, meaning Scarangella's contribution to the community did not live up to certain standards.

Thomas Scarangella, 36, who was 7 at the time of his father's death in 1981, said his family was "shocked" to see the same community board that refused his family's earlier proposal later accept Bell's.

"It's not really about my father himself, but what he did for his community and what Sean Bell did for his community. It's a big difference," said Scarangella, a Metropolitan Transportation Authority cop.

Scarangella said he was equally shocked by Gzifa's statement.

"When a cop gets shot [multiple] times, it's not something that you should say is a headache to you," said Scarangella, whose dad already has a playground in Gravesend, Brooklyn, named in his memory.

On April 16, 1981, John Scarangella, 42, and partner Richard Rainey, officers in the 113th Precinct, were gunned down near the corner of 202nd St. and 116th Ave. in St. Albans as they approached a van linked to a string of robberies. Scarangella was shot 16 times and died two weeks later.

Fellow NYPD officers were also upset by Gzifa's comments.

"I am deeply angered by the cavalier attitude of the community official who dismisses the risk of death faced by police officers as nothing more than the cost of doing the job," said Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association.

Community Board 12 also rejected a street renaming for slain Officer Eddie Byrne of the 103rd Precinct in 1988, before eventually approving it in 1989, according to the PBA.

John Scarangella's family resubmitted the renaming request after the City Council approved the Bell renaming.

Councilman Leroy Comrie (D-St. Albans), whose district includes Community Board 12, said he met with members of the PBA recently and is "optimistic" the board will change its mind.

Even Bell's fiancée, Nicole Paultre Bell, said Scarangella deserved to have a street named after him.

"Someone losing their life - especially if he served the city - he definitely deserves to have a street named after him," she said. "He deserves the honor, just like Sean deserved the honor."

The proposal is slated to go in front of Community Board 12's transportation committee next month.


This makes me sick. A kid, WHO WAS A KNOWN DRUG DEALER. is shot by the cops in a dispute (where he was drunk and rammed his car into a police vehicle, THEN was shot) and gets a street named after him. A cop gets shot 16 times during a vehicle stop and its deemed not enough to warrant a street naming. What's happened to this country?
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Silo
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I agree with you that a street should be named after the officer who was killed. However, I don't think using the Sean Bell incident as a reference is correct to do. Yes, Sean Bell was obviously intoxicated at the time, he was leaving his bachelor party. The officer who originally followed them out of the club was supposedly undercover and was dressed in normal clothes. He states that he followed Sean Bell and 3 or 4 of his friends outside because one said he was going to get a gun after an argument with a woman. They all got in a car somehow/some reason and the police officer allegedly pulled out his badge and screamed "police" several times. Instead of getting out of the car, Sean Bell, the driver at the time, hit the gas, hit the police officer and then crashed into an unmarked police van. As soon as they crashed, the police officer said he thought he saw one of them reach for a gun (?), then he screamed gun to the other police officers on the scene and then 50 shots were fired.

The whole incident is just weird and fishy to me and supposedly one of the people involved in the crash ran away with the only gun in the car. Really? The cop got hit by a car, got up, witnessed the crash into the van, but didn't see a man run out of the car with the gun, meanwhile saw someone ELSE reach for a gun, freaked out and SCREAMED gun, and 50!!!! shots were let off. Also, none of the other officers saw the guy run off after crashing into THEIR van???? The whole thing just screams police fuck up, but I'm not going to say that it was and I'm not going to say Sean Bell and his friends were innocent, but all I'm saying is it's not fair to compare the 2 incidents because they're completely unrelated in a way, even though they both involve changing the names of streets to slain people's names.
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TheEyebrow
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Yeah the author's just trying to create some controversy; it obviously sounds goofy in the right context.

But to answer your question, the problem with this country is the great divide between so many different groups. Cops obviously look a lot different to those who feel victimized by them. I don't see how it's going to get any better while drug money makes bad choices seem so enticing.
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CanadianCrippler
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It sets a bad example. Renaming streets is played anyway.
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Gandy
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I too call shenanigans in comparing this to the Bell situation.
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The Wizard of Goz
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What is so wrong about comparing the two? Its the SAME community board ruling on the SAME issue, naming a street after a dead person. The only difference is the dead person.

I don't see how you can't compare the two. It would be different if the Queens community board gave the OK on Bell, but then the Bronx community board said no on the cop. But the same board?

Lets make a comparison. Dave goes to Gandy and says, "hey can I borrow $20?" Gandy says sure and gives him the money. Shortly thereafter, Eye goes to Gandy and also asks to borrow $20. Gandy says no this time. Why did Gandy say yes to Dave and no to Eye? He doesn't have to tell us, maybe he thinks Dave will be able to pay him back and Eye won't. Maybe he knows that Eye has a rep for not paying people back (this is all hypothetical!). We'll never know why Gandy came to his conclusions, but we will know this: Gandy felt differently about Eye than he did about Dave, since it was the same issue of lending $20.

The Queens Community Relations Board felt differently about Sean Bell than a NYPD Cop.
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TheEyebrow
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It's a government-to-government vs. government-to-people issue, not just a naming issue. You've gotta consider the community, ignore Bell's bad decisions entirely. The community feels Bell is just another kid who never asked to live in the crappy inner city and probably also feel the cops in town victimize people. They're in a position of subservience and they never volunteered for it. Meanwhile the cops have all the legal power AND they volunteered to put themselves on those streets. Yes there's a community board and street in both cases, but the situation is completely different.
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The Wizard of Goz
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TheEyebrow
Jan 23 2010, 02:29 PM
It's a government-to-government vs. government-to-people issue, not just a naming issue. You've gotta consider the community, ignore Bell's bad decisions entirely. The community feels Bell is just another kid who never asked to live in the crappy inner city and probably also feel the cops in town victimize people. They're in a position of subservience and they never volunteered for it. Meanwhile the cops have all the legal power AND they volunteered to put themselves on those streets. Yes there's a community board and street in both cases, but the situation is completely different.
You just said it yourself. Its not a different situation, its how the community board "feels" about cops, and how a young black man like Bell can do no wrong. We don't know if the whole community feels like that, but these officials apparently do.

Its just like the Wire: if you asked Bodie in season 1 if he felt the cops victimized his crew he woulda said hell yeah, but look what he was doing. However, maybe another person living in the 221 would have said no since they haven't had negative interaction with the police. In our situation though, we're seeing people in government positions who think more highly of a man who tried to injure officers in an altercation than officers who did their job by trying to keep the community safe for years. And that is where the injustice lies.

Maybe I'm just old school or too right winged for you guys, but I see a big problem with this board, who are supposed to be the respected members of these communities, having a lack of respect for those who try to keep them safe day in and day out, while having more respect for someone who tried to injure or kill police.
Edited by The Wizard of Goz, Jan 23 2010, 04:05 PM.
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TheEyebrow
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It's not a matter of respect, it's a matter of symbolism. Auschwitz is still up in Germany because it's an inescapable part of Germany, not because the government loves concentration camps. If the officer's family asked the board if they respected the officer, I'm sure the board would have unanimously said yes. But you're dealing with a case that's now 28 years old and the officer already has a park named after him. Does this guy really symbolize the community so much that his name should be on anything the family asks for? And if so, it goes back to the board member's question exactly, "For every police officer that puts on a uniform and carries a gun, if they should perish in the line of duty, does that mean we have to rename a street after them?". Is your answer to that an emphatic yes?
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El Creepo H
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i still don't think they should name it after a drug dealer...
"Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter"
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TomAss
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How do we know that the cop wasn't slinging dope on the side?
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The Wizard of Goz
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TheEyebrow
Jan 23 2010, 07:03 PM
But you're dealing with a case that's now 28 years old and the officer already has a park named after him. Does this guy really symbolize the community so much that his name should be on anything the family asks for? And if so, it goes back to the board member's question exactly, "For every police officer that puts on a uniform and carries a gun, if they should perish in the line of duty, does that mean we have to rename a street after them?". Is your answer to that an emphatic yes?
Which brings me back to the point of a comparison between the two situations.

You need to establish a baseline, and the question is "What constitutes deserving to have a street named after you?" The way you establish a baseline is to look back and the board's prior rulings to see what they tend to deem as worthy. This is why I'm comparing the two, very similar to court cases where you look back on precedence. Court cases are never the same situation or even with the same judge or jury, but you use them as your baseline going forward.

That board has every right to deem that this fallen cop doesn't deserve a street, especially if he has a park already named after him. But once you gave this dead perp a street, you set a poor precedence, as aaron said.
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TheEyebrow
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You only need precedence when there are no existing guidelines, but as the article described,

"That proposal was rejected because it did not meet local criteria, Gzifa said, meaning Scarangella's contribution to the community did not live up to certain standards."

They already have a baseline, but he didn't live up to it. They'd have to re-write the criteria just to fit this guy in, which is a complete break from precedent. So again, does every shot officer deserve a street name?

It's a false comparison because the article just completely rejects the basis on which the decision was made. The author clearly knew there was a guideline in place but just said, "eh fuck it I'll write it according to my standards so it sounds more fucked up". He didn't write it as "One group asked for a street name and got it because it met criteria, and after this another group asked for a street name and got mad after finding out it didn't meet criteria".

That's why I say it's a matter of perspective. Imagine a situation from the USSR like 30 years ago saying an underground newspaper publisher was being arrested by the KGB but tried to run and got shot 50 times. What's more appropriate for that community this very day? A statue for a guy who died because he accepted free speech was part of his community, or a statue for a random KGB soldier who got shot some other time by a publisher? If you treat oppression of free speech as totally justifiable and a principle more important than a human life just because there's a law against it, then fine give it to the soldier. But what if the law's bad? I'm not saying drug laws are as bad as free speech restrictions, but are either really good enough to kill for?

Bell has already been judged in the context of the law and lost his life over it. That judgment's over, and indeed he was guilty. This one is about the justice of a system where 50-bullet police shootings are the results, and I completely understand why the community feels the way it does.
Edited by TheEyebrow, Jan 24 2010, 02:55 PM.
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The Wizard of Goz
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You do need precedence. There are plenty of laws on our books but court case precedence builds on top of that.

I guess this is why I'm a conservative, I'll never understand how a community can value a guy (he meets "local criteria) that was known for dealing drugs and attempted to injure a cop. Nothin but a perp who got handed street justice to me.

I'll use this opportunity to plug Southland, a great show that is on TNT on Tuesdays at 10. Here's an excellent quote from it that I think gives a little insight into how I feel about this debate:
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What the hell did you think the gun was for, huh? Show-and-tell? Look, you'll get over it - all right, they'll send you to BSS, you'll do all that Buddhist "I love and revere all sentient beings" crap; then at o'dark-thirty, next time you're up, you will drag your weary, fried ass out of bed, you will put on your gun and your vest, and you will do it all over again. You know why? Because this is a front row seat to the greatest show on earth. Can you abuse it? Yes, sir - you can, and you will; I guarantee it. Because it is relentless, and it gets to you, and it seems like it changes nothing. But a day like today, with some interesting capers, and a few good arrests? That's good. But every once in a while, you get to take a bad guy off the streets for good... and that, my friend, is God's work. So now you wanna be a pussy and quit, you quit. You're a cop because you don't know how not to be one. If you feel that way, you're a cop. If you don't, you're not - you decide.


In short, I think NM should give Southland a chance. Its a great opportunity to jump into the show. They are currently re-airing season 1 for the next few weeks, and when that is over, they are going to show the unaired Season 2. This week will be episode 3, so if you want to catch the first 2 episodes (and I highly recommend it, the first episode of this show will pull you in, its extremely exciting), you can do so on TNT's website.

Its a ****1/2 show for me, the only show that tops it in my eyes is The Wire. Give it a chance NM!
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TheEyebrow
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Jan 24 2010, 08:39 PM
You do need precedence. There are plenty of laws on our books but court case precedence builds on top of that.

I guess this is why I'm a conservative, I'll never understand how a community can value a guy (he meets "local criteria) that was known for dealing drugs and attempted to injure a cop. Nothin but a perp who got handed street justice to me.
Precedent can matter in a courtroom but this is just some community board making naming decisions. Plus, this officer had been rejected before, so the past may not be his best hope.

I don't know why you're bringing conservatism into this as if liberals 'value' drug dealers. This is a decision made by the community and only the community, this isn't some ideology. I still don't think it's a fair comparison, in one instance you're giving a tribute to a person for their personal actions. With Bell, you're creating a symbol of the (perceived) police brutality which I would assume is a shared concern amongst some of the community. You're not voting someone into the community and going with a drug dealer over a cop, nor is this isn't some official respect contest, it's just a street name. Don King isn't famous for being Don King, I don't know a damn thing about the dude. He's famous and his name is brought up a lot because of what happened to him. If both these same things happened in my community, I'd vote for the cop and against Bell, but that's because the police are good and fair in my county, so police brutality is an inaccurate characteristic of where I live.

That's why I say the author is imposing his own standards. Street naming isn't some sacrosanct ritual explicitly made for respecting individuals. It's about whatever the community wants. My street is named Eaglebeak Row. According to this author, my street must necessarily be named after some respected dude named Mr. Eaglebeak who once died here. Or he's wrong and it's just named that because my community has its own guidelines and prefers shit from old poems to people. Or imagine if every city that uses 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. streets suddenly changed to Smith, Adams, Jones...it'd fuck things up. And there's that one dude on Bell's community board who voted against both proposals cause he doesn't think a street name is worth shit...is that such a crazy notion? That's why I think to bring up respect or value, someone from this board must have said 'the guidelines are based on who we respect and value most'. But the author just wrote that implication in himself.
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The Wizard of Goz
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TheEyebrow
Jan 24 2010, 09:44 PM
I don't know why you're bringing conservatism into this as if liberals 'value' drug dealers. This is a decision made by the community and only the community, this isn't some ideology. I still don't think it's a fair comparison, in one instance you're giving a tribute to a person for their personal actions. With Bell, you're creating a symbol of the (perceived) police brutality which I would assume is a shared concern amongst some of the community. You're not voting someone into the community and going with a drug dealer over a cop, nor is this isn't some official respect contest, it's just a street name. Don King isn't famous for being Don King, I don't know a damn thing about the dude. He's famous and his name is brought up a lot because of what happened to him. If both these same things happened in my community, I'd vote for the cop and against Bell, but that's because the police are good and fair in my county, so police brutality is an inaccurate characteristic of where I live.

That's why I say the author is imposing his own standards. Street naming isn't some sacrosanct ritual explicitly made for respecting individuals. It's about whatever the community wants. My street is named Eaglebeak Row. According to this author, my street must necessarily be named after some respected dude named Mr. Eaglebeak who once died here. Or he's wrong and it's just named that because my community has its own guidelines and prefers shit from old poems to people. Or imagine if every city that uses 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. streets suddenly changed to Smith, Adams, Jones...it'd fuck things up. And there's that one dude on Bell's community board who voted against both proposals cause he doesn't think a street name is worth shit...is that such a crazy notion? That's why I think to bring up respect or value, someone from this board must have said 'the guidelines are based on who we respect and value most'. But the author just wrote that implication in himself.
I didn't mean conservative so much in the ideals as I meant it as a shot at those liberal "FIGHT THE POWER, MAN!" assholes that think if a criminal is arrested and suffers a scratch during his arrest he should sue for brutality.

At the end of the day I'm not arguing for a street name, so it doesn't matter that your street is named Eaglebeak Row. I can't follow the argument you have in that paragraph. I'm arguing as to how anyone in their right mind can possibly think criminals deserve anything more than the time of day, LET ALONE a dedication in their honor. The system is broken in New York City; if a white cop does so much as raise a finger to a black man, even if he has committed a crime, he will be fired and lose his pension, something he's worked his whole career for. The NYPD, the government, no one will back him for doing his job. The criminals are winning the legal battles, so much so that a hard working NYPD man can lose his entire retirement over a skirmish while he's trying to handcuff a young black man.

Just last year, an NYPD lieutenant from around here shot a guy with a taser to subdue him, but the taser knocked the man to the side and he fell off a balcony to his death. Did he do anything wrong? In another area, he most likely would have got off with not even a warning. The guy was just doing his job and it was an unfortunate accident. But right after it happened, the NYPD got the paperwork going to fire him, facing pressure from lawsuits and the like. So what did he do? He killed himself before they could fire him and take away his pension, so that his young children and wife would still receive his pension.

The street naming situation is just another example of the situation in NYC and I think its a fucking travesty.
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TheEyebrow
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The Wizard of Goz
Jan 25 2010, 08:56 PM
At the end of the day I'm not arguing for a street name, so it doesn't matter that your street is named Eaglebeak Row. I can't follow the argument you have in that paragraph. I'm arguing as to how anyone in their right mind can possibly think criminals deserve anything more than the time of day, LET ALONE a dedication in their honor.
The whole point of the street name paragraph was to argue that the criminal ISNT receiving anything. You're claiming Bell is receiving a dedication in his honor, but I'm arguing exactly the opposite. All that happened is a street name changed, and like I said, there is nothing that says all street names are dedications.

The Eaglebeak part was reinforcing this. The author argues that [The street is named Bell St., therefore it is a sign of respect to Bell]. If you replace the name of the street with mine it would read [The street is named Eaglebeak Row, therefore it is a sign of respect to Eaglebeak]. That's obviously a ridiculous statement. I argue that therefore so is the first. Not all street names are dedications = This particular street name isn't a dedication. The move was made for the people in the community who felt pissed off for whatever reasons, and unless we know otherwise they're law-abiding citizens. Bell didn't get shit, these good people who wanted a weird thing did.

The NYPD stuff I get, because you're screwing good cops out of millions of dollars potentially in pensions. But a street name is 50 cents worth of paint. So I'm not arguing the big argument you've clearly fought before a few times :D. I'm just arguing that 50 cents to appease a few citizens who want a symbol isn't a big deal and doesn't constitute respect. In my eyes no one in this case got a dedication.
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