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| Amanze's Link Advice Thread! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 07:19 PM (838 Views) | |
| Amanze | Dec 6 2010, 07:19 PM Post #1 |
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Mid Tier
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If you have the COURAGE, step to the plate my children. |
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| Tempest | Dec 6 2010, 08:57 PM Post #2 |
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High Tier
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why not young link |
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| Kyle | Dec 7 2010, 02:17 AM Post #3 |
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FluxWolf
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is it a good strat to moonwalk into every move u do with lunk |
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| Deepak | Dec 7 2010, 11:46 AM Post #4 |
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High Tier
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how do i do that thing where you shoot up in the air and drop bombs from the ceiling? |
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| Thor | Jul 21 2013, 10:50 PM Post #5 |
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Bottom Tier
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Nobody really ever posted on this thing. EVER. So yeah... Not too helpful. I'm not good with Link, but advice I've heard/found out (info source). I'm really bad at combos, and my Link tends to be defensive while looking to set up combos with bombs and boomerangs. So higher skill players might know all this and choose to look elsewhere. -Watch good Link pros for practical knowledge of their actions (Links vs Stinks crew battle (APEX) is nice, and Link pros on Youtube might include Aniki, J666, InternetExplorer, Lord HDL, Skler, and The GERM, but not sure) (both) -Nair in the air tons. Breaks combos, annoys people, combos and SHHFLs. (heard it) -His wavedash sucks, apparently some pros don't use it. (heard it) -Bombs and boomerang rock, bow sucks. Bow can edgeguard if they fire fox/bird startup at a bad spot though. Bombs are terrible to edgeguard but can help an otherwise dead teammate if your ally DIs well. (both) -Airdodge to hookshot is probably a little better than simple up+b for distance, but it's hard on Battlefield and might be read easily. Hookshot with no airdodge can be hard to aim anywhere, but is less predictable. (found out) -Dair (and to a lesser extent, fair and uair) are bad edgeguard options due to high ending lag. Fair is good if A) they recover high and B) you jump off a platform to fair them, leaving extra space to double jump and up+b (vs off the edge and to likely doom). (both) -If an opponent is a fastfaller and they don't DI well, fsmash can chain to itself, and even possibly the up+b semispike. Don't expect to land this though (ever) (found out). -People don't seem to use reflector on bombs at close range, but they like to shield them. (found out). Maybe the people I play just don't view shine as a reflector. -Fsmash's second swing is very punishable. If the first part hits shield, following up will get punished and not following up might (Because they'll wait a bit to see if you follow up). So if you hit shield, 90+% don't follow-up, unless you see shield drop. Not sure if Jigglypuff can Rest you out of it. (found out) -Up+b is also insanely punishable. The spacing is perfect so Marth can tipper fsmash a missed up+b (if he's really close), and Jigglypuff can Rest you. Avoid it unless you're finishing a combo or have a bomb about to explode and want to risk it. (found out - it hurt) -Dair is great to finish off the top, more powerful than uair (which is still good), and up+b is a powerful semi-spike, great for edgeguarding if they go high or miss a ledge sweetspot (especially on Final Destination). (found out). -His tilts feel slow, but utilt is okay. Ftilt might a few frames faster than fsmash, but it almost certainly has less ending lag. Dtilt has a meteor, but I've never hit it (both). -If you jab and don't hit shield, finish the combo or go into rapid-stab - seems to get punished if you only do a stab or two. (found out) I haven't messed with grabs much - usually just miss and get nailed. Might add more later. Again, my techskill's low (can't wavedash and I often miss tilts as a smash instead), but I can at worst talk to myself and take this as a notebook and update over time. Maybe some other Links will show up and can help me and/or improve. Feel free to correct me if anything I've said is dumb or whatever. Then I can also know if what I've heard is wrong, what I thought is wrong, or both. I'll probably correct myself over time too. Also @Deepak, pretty sure that's a glitch where you smash throw boomerang diagonal up, jump off and hookshot the stage, then the boomerang hits you and launches you sky-high and you can pull a bomb, but it's not in Melee 1.2. Not sure if most Melee is V1.2 or V1.0/1.1/whatever. (heard it) |
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| Thor | Jul 21 2013, 11:05 PM Post #6 |
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Bottom Tier
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Even more stuff: Fixed: Bombs are actually okay for breaking up recovery if your opponent is going horizontal - it can rob jumps and such, and breaks Marth's Dancing blade floating a bit. But good DI means you probably don't cause them to lose vertical distance, and they might gain some. They are horrible on Peach's parasol but great against her float. (both found out and was told/saw it) More: -Probably a duh but, while you might be able to get away with no wavedash, you NEED to L-cancel, especially uair, dair, and fair. (both) -Dmash can be used for KOing, but spacing properties and safety on shield (and lag due to second swing) are terrible. Only use for spacing if facing away from opponent (to let second swing be the dangerous one and add startup to reduce cooldown). Otherwise, fsmash is better, but still not exactly good. (both) -Dash attack can be used to start combos at higher percents on fastfallers. At lower percents it might just be punishable. Floaties it might actually have too much knockback at higher percents to start a combo but won't KO. It's reasonably fast, so it's sort of usable. But definitely punishable on shields. (both) -Trying to figure out how to start rapid stabbing, but it seems the best way to get out of a situation where you start a jab and it hits shield is to try to trigger rapid jabbing. Will add more to this (found out) |
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| Amanze | Jul 22 2013, 08:38 PM Post #7 |
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Mid Tier
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-Watch good Link pros for practical knowledge of their actions (Links vs Stinks crew battle (APEX) is nice, and Link pros on Youtube might include Aniki, J666, InternetExplorer, Lord HDL, Skler, and The GERM, but not sure) (both) Every Link in the crew battle sucked except HDL (Boss). While alot of them had different tricks and styles I was highly disappointed by by almost everyone else. -Nair in the air tons. Breaks combos, annoys people, combos and SHHFLs. (heard it) Nair or Bombs are probably Links best moves. Everything else is sluggish and slow. -His wavedash sucks, apparently some pros don't use it. (heard it) I have a hard time believing that. The only character I can think of that might not Wavedash is Jigglypuff and even she needs it for somethings. Yea Link has a poor wavedash but the action wave dashing is sooooooo good and important that Links should still use it as regularly as any other character. I think Aniki didn't Wavedash but he played way back in 04 when we were all still have Free For All items parties and then went to FD No items for serious games. So it doesn't matter -Bombs and boomerang rock, bow sucks. Bow can edgeguard if they fire fox/bird startup at a bad spot though. Bombs are terrible to edgeguard but can help an otherwise dead teammate if your ally DIs well. (both) Bow Sucks, Boomerang is OK, and Bombs are good but not as good as say Laser from Fox or Falco. You should only edge guard with Nair, grabbing the ledge, and Up B anyway. In teams your rarely going to save your partner with projectiles so just tell you teammate to focus on not getting hit in the first place. -Airdodge to hookshot is probably a little better than simple up+b for distance, but it's hard on Battlefield and might be read easily. Hookshot with no airdodge can be hard to aim anywhere, but is less predictable. (found out) Everything is situational. It could all be considered a bad option if your opponent knows its coming. Things to keep in mind is that Link can always grad the ledge backwards (like facing away from it). Also he has the bomb jump to gain an extra up-b. The mid air set up is soo long though that if your close enough to where you need it a real character could just hit you again anyway. -Dair (and to a lesser extent, fair and uair) are bad edgeguard options due to high ending lag. Fair is good if A) they recover high and B) you jump off a platform to fair them, leaving extra space to double jump and up+b (vs off the edge and to likely doom). (both) Grabbing the ledge is the best option in the game and its not even character dependent. When you grab the ledge you take away an option the recovering character had. Even if you get off it immediately, by grabbing it in the first place you let your opponent know that you could cover it. Your on the complete offensive and the recovering character has to guess how to get back or lose a stock. Jiggs and Peach can get around this but every other character in the game is susceptible to edge guarding. Dair and Fair are bad edge guard moves because it helps your opponent if it doesn't kill them it makes it easier for them to get back. Nair is the best because if it hits early you hit them far enough that they cant come back. If it hits late then your in animation less time to follow up with something. The best option for edge guarding in my opinion is to grab the ledge and then punish when they HAVE TO land on stage. Link is a powerful character and because they are stuck in stun you can follow up with up-B, dair, whatever and not be hindered by his sluggish moves. Some characters have no landing lag off up B (Fox, Falco, Zelda, Mewtwo, ect) but their recoveries are more linear and easier to punish. -If an opponent is a fastfaller and they don't DI well, fsmash can chain to itself, and even possibly the up+b semispike. Don't expect to land this though (ever) (found out). Link sucks because of his poor defensive stats. His weight is perfect to be juggled and is sluggishly slow so his moves don't move out fast enough. While his moves do have good knockback and damage, it doesn't mean anything when a fox can Nair you twice for 24% at a lightning speed. With that said as a Link I use F-Smash less than when it was just me and Deepak in the L-Shapes. Down Smash hits way faster in the front than F-Smash (maybe even as a whole move) and it can shield poke. I wouldn't doubt that Up-B hits faster either. The only time I downsmash now is if Jigglypuff misses a rest as the second slash is his strongest move. -People don't seem to use reflector on bombs at close range, but they like to shield them. (found out). Maybe the people I play just don't view shine as a reflector. Projectiles in General. I dont know but when I play Fox/Falco it really throws off my rhythm to Reflect something with shine and then wavedash out of it. Powersheilding is what people tend to try instead but for any reflector based character my experience is they would rather shield it than reflect it. -Fsmash's second swing is very punishable. If the first part hits shield, following up will get punished and not following up might (Because they'll wait a bit to see if you follow up). So if you hit shield, 90+% don't follow-up, unless you see shield drop. Not sure if Jigglypuff can Rest you out of it. (found out) As said before, Fsmash sucks. -Up+b is also insanely punishable. The spacing is perfect so Marth can tipper fsmash a missed up+b (if he's really close), and Jigglypuff can Rest you. Avoid it unless you're finishing a combo or have a bomb about to explode and want to risk it. (found out - it hurt) Up-B also sucks. I only really use it to punish techs (cause the range is good) or Up-B oos if the pressure is on. Its not as bad as F-Smash but those two moves along with his tilts show how sluggish the character is. Worse of all if his Up-B hits a shield then the rest of the move wont hit. Fox could shield the first hit, wave dash into the rest of it and charge and upsmash (which if it doesn't kill, will be followed up by an extremely easy Up-Air) -Dair is great to finish off the top, more powerful than uair (which is still good), and up+b is a powerful semi-spike, great for edgeguarding if they go high or miss a ledge sweetspot (especially on Final Destination). (found out). Dair is a good finisher but you can only really Grab > D-Throw/ Up-Throw(???) into it. There is also grabbing the ledge and using it as punishment when whatever character lands on the stage. Up Air is practical and good for juggling so you should actually be using it more in battle. Up+B is solid for those characters who refuse to aim for the ledge too. -His tilts feel slow, but utilt is okay. Ftilt might a few frames faster than fsmash, but it almost certainly has less ending lag. Dtilt has a meteor, but I've never hit it (both). All the tilts are bad except up tilt. Forward tilt is slow and sluggish. Down tilt is also bad and you can see the wind up on it. Up Tilt is good and it combos into up air too. -If you jab and don't hit shield, finish the combo or go into rapid-stab - seems to get punished if you only do a stab or two. (found out) I love Jabs. I see Links on youtube doing jab > Grab and such quick speeds. I dont know how to do it but it looks good. I try not to rapid stab cause its bad but the basic jab is ok and one of Links faster options. I haven't messed with grabs much - usually just miss and get nailed. Might add more later. Again, my techskill's low (can't wavedash and I often miss tilts as a smash instead), but I can at worst talk to myself and take this as a notebook and update over time. Maybe some other Links will show up and can help me and/or improve. Feel free to correct me if anything I've said is dumb or whatever. Then I can also know if what I've heard is wrong, what I thought is wrong, or both. I'll probably correct myself over time too. This is so important. So much of smash is the basics. Can you wave dash, are you L-Canceling everything? Is your spacing proper, yada-yada-yada. These basics are more important than anything talked about above. Not only is this stuff more important, it goes with you from character to character. If your knowledge and skill in these area's is groundbreaking, you will never be great. |
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| Tempest | Jul 22 2013, 11:48 PM Post #8 |
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High Tier
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thats easily the most helpful post i've ever seen amanze write up. |
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| Thor | Jul 23 2013, 12:11 AM Post #9 |
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Bottom Tier
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@Amanze: NOW you post stuff. Better late than never. Not that I care much but you didn't bold one of your post things. Temporarily confused me. New stuff and some stuff based on Amanze's post: -Work on tech skill - applies for everyone. Link's wavedash still sucks, but it's usable, mainly for repositions; bombs and boomerangs allow for better approaches as Link (in general). Wavedash-> attack as mix ups probably - Link's range is already decent with a sword and the wavedash doesn't move fast enough or far enough to do it 3 times in a row to an attack (*cough* glares at Luigi *cough*). Still add it though - my thoughts will probably change over time and I might just get slapped for this. -As said earlier, L-cancelling is vital. High-lag aerials suck, but you might get off a powershield if you miss and L-cancel, while you'll never do so if you don't. -Uair juggles. And it juggles well - nearly no people have answers to a disjoint and priority that big (Marth/Roy might, will be checked). Link might as well, but given the way his dair looks I doubt it. We'll also not focus too much on how Link and Y-Link respond - they're not really prevalent enough for the mirror match to matter in terms of general improvement. Fox, Falco, Marth, Jiggs, Peach, Captain Falcon,' ICs, (& maybe) Doc, Ganon, & Samus - THEY matter. -Boomerang appears to be (a tiny little bit) better than Amanze gives credit. It annoys, has perfect knockback to start combos, and it can be a covering tool because it might disrupt combos. But it might also stop a kill (happened to Aniki in a match against Ken - solid up+b and Ken hit the boomerang coming back). Minor downside. At the very least, most Link pros (or Link players in tourneys) use it a ton, regardless of who they're playing. So calling it okay seems understated. Just don't expect it to rack damage (it's a control tool, not a damage tool). -Rapid jab is done by mashing A, while regular jab finish is 3 presses. -Jab also chains into downsmash if you don't use the third blow (crouching likely). Seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxI-dcgQ-Bw -Watch that video above. A Link main points out stuff from his match against M2K and explains stuff. Although this Link might suck and Amanze'll just say, No, Thor, don't be dumb. But in case I'm not dumb and he doesn't suck, here's some tips from the video. Like: -When chaingrabbed, tech AND mash jump - they probably try to jab you (jabs been done by Triple R's Kirby too) and jump lets you escape early. It might not help at higher percents, but when you're bouncing or teching, avoid it. -Arrows eat needles and hit Sheik. Maybe good to screw with them, but probably Sheik just hops a platform and you're screwed. InternetExplorer probably won't use bow much, and he only deployed it due to a reset that occurred. -Lag on L-Cancelled dair is 25 frames. That's 5/12 of a second - prepare to eat a smash or other powerful attack. -3 good anti-chain grab stages - Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's story, and Pokémon Stadium, helps because you can tech the platform. (Personally also like Dreamland because Link doesn't die easily and it gives more room to set up boomerang and bombs, but that's not from the video, it's from me.) FD is the nightmare to avoid - you NEED platforms to space against chaingrabs. And space in general is good - projectiles and chipping away is easier with extra space. Back to stuff from me: -Up-smash is nigh-useless. But it's really funny when someone is trying to come at you from off a platform (like Pokémon stadium) because it's so random. They'll probably have a whut? moment. There might be combos out of it, but I doubt it. Utilt has more KO power, or at least lets uair off easier. so ignore this move. A potential use would be on a stage with platforms where you knock them on a platform and they don't instant tech, you can charge it underneath and wait for the roll, but I don't know if it has the range to sweep through the whole platform (will test). -Link's defensive game isn't completely terrible - until you get hit. He's got a fat sword to try to keep people off, and that nair for approaches, plus projectiles to try to give character hiccups. But once you're hit, you have two options - having already prepared, a bomb explodes and lets you get extra DI and/or hits them, breaking the combo, or you can nair/jump out and try to land and get bomb and boomerang out again. More recovery stuff: -Bomb jumping is hard. Saw a video once but don't remember what it's called (might find it). Something about going out and coming back to the bomb so it looks to almost hit Link's head when he unleashes the final slash. Probably a last resort thing - gives the edgeguarder years to prepare and it doesn't seem to give him that much extra distance compared to using airdodge+hookshot. -IMPORTANT: The hookshot doesn't work if you're too close to the stage. Not sure why, but it just doesn't attach. So if you're way below the ledge on FD, but close to the base, it makes sense to airdodge AWAY (and up) from FD to give enough space for hookshot to function properly. Also, by too close I mean if you were level with the ledge you might be able to airdodge and grab the ledge. Extra random stuff: -Rapid jab is bad on actually hitting the player (stop it right away unless they clearly just don't SDI, and even then, probably stop it) but is MUCH better on shield than normal stab combo. If you hit shield with a stab, either look to cancel and do a grab, or mash like crazy for that rapid stab. -Fair has very high knockback, so if you miss a KO (say, up+b at 120% connects and they're alive) and your opponent tries to land onstage, fair might finish it (especially if they already used a jump). The previous rules I mentioned apply (don't jump straight offstage for it), and while it might not help their recovery much, it is NOT a real gimp if they DI properly (except at high percents as mentioned earlier due to sheer knockback.) 2nd hit is much better (1st hit might not actually work.) To do: I'll be messing with fairs and report back - they seem to come out faster than I give them credit for, and the base knockback is high enough to keep people off you. Short-hopped retreating L-canclelled fair might be a thing (the video has at least a few) - or it does nothing and that's just a pro being pro. -Grabs can be good for combos, but the lag is atrocious if you miss. Will look into best throw, etc. -Will also mess with the chain and check the landing lag out of short-hops - it's actually really good in Brawl (Izaw a beast), but this is Melee, so we'll see. Need to check if that's L-Cancellable as well. -I'm obviously forgetting a ton of stuff. Might start compiling or sorting as a V0.01 or something. Also, do you even play Link, Amanze? P.S: Amanze, probably the best part of my game is spacing (not that I'm great). Probably because I play Brawl. L-cancelling is poor (only dair and uair, and not always hitting it) and I can dash-dance, but if it takes more skill than that, it's probably not there (can't moonwalk, don't even know how). Also, duh tell my partner not to get hit. But stuff happens and at crunch time, knowing to use a bomb vs trying to get them with an aerial or using the bow can matter. Sort of like you would tell Jigglypuffs to use uair, not bair or fair, to save a buddy. Maybe wrong place to ask, but, do you/others use L or R to L-Cancel? Wavedash? Shield? I use R for everything that needs to use L or R, which might be part of the problem. |
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| Tempest | Jul 24 2013, 02:08 AM Post #10 |
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High Tier
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i'm confused why your just spewing out all this random link knowledge. also it REALLY DOES NOT MATTER.. AT ALL.. about what buttons you use. everyone has preferences, there is no BEST way to shield or to wavedash, do what is comfortable. and also reading some of your post i felt like you treat wavedash as some sort of.. like move or something on its own, but wavedashing is just a one part of a much bigger thing.. 'movement' you can't just be told when a good time to wavedash with link is i guess is my point, but amanze is right EVERYONES wavedash is useful to an extent, maybe not like luigis, but they all help, even if its just to grab a ledge faster. |
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| Maxy B | Jul 24 2013, 03:59 AM Post #11 |
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Mid Tier
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That has to be the longest post I've ever seen in my time of being a member of the MN Smash community. I didn't read a single word of it, but that's a lot of words, bro. GGs. |
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| Deepak | Jul 24 2013, 08:06 AM Post #12 |
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High Tier
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dont forget to moonwalk with link tho |
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| Thor | Jul 24 2013, 06:56 PM Post #13 |
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Bottom Tier
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@Tempest: First it's a long post BECAUSE no one cares. I'm the only one who'll use this, so it's like a repository of info I can update (I said that somewhere else but you didn't read it). Maybe I shouldn't use this that way - then just flag a violation. Plus, if someone else comes on and wants Link help, they seem some preliminary notes and also some more experienced members commenting due to so much stuff put in here. I have already reviewed this a couple times for things to think about, so yes someone's actually reading it. ME. Wavedashing is part of movement, but Link's is subpar. I know it's all movement but there are definitely times where it's useful, and I'm noting it. I sorta realized exactly what you pointed out (not a specific time) but you beat me to that edit. And maybe I don't respect it enough - sorry I'm more of a Brawl guy who plays Pika/Falco/MK. Mobility without a wavedash was never a problem until I came to smashfests and played Melee and decided to suck less. Also, the buttons used matter because I have no developed (Melee) tech skill, so if a lot of people share a method, it's because it works. I also have this problem of not using L (at all - R-cancelling!), so since I probably need to learn to use it, picking up what others did might be nice, unless someone else tells me they only use one trigger. It's just for extra input on what works. I need to eventually know how to moonwalk, so thanks for that Deepak. I'll look for it. I'll put it at the end, because you probably didn't read any of this, so I'll highlight the part you care about: if you don't like my posts' length, flag a violation. And I didn't know this stuff before I learned it recently, so if you want to info-dump, by all means. I'll probably learn something. |
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| mastr0fmyd0main3 | Jul 25 2013, 04:46 AM Post #14 |
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Mid Tier
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Spacing and speed are key to smash, whether it's setting yourself up for an approach or avoiding getting hit or throwing off the opponent. Every character's wavedash helps them space and move quickly. Supplementing your game with wavedash is better than not. In a vacuum, all other things being equal, the guy who wavedashes will beat the guy who doesn't. As far as I know, Aniki, the old pro Link player from, yeah, like, 2003-4, didn't wavedash because he initially found it difficult and then wrote it off as unnecessary. That wouldn't fly nowadays. Is there anyone in the last five years who has done well in tournaments who doesn't wavedash? I haven't seen or heard of them. Just wavedash, man. You need it. I mostly use L to L-cancel, tech, and shield, but sometimes I use R to shield when I went to wavedash out of shield. For some reason wavedashing out of an L shield feels weird to me. EDIT: Thor: what do you mean by a "subpar" wavedash? That it's short? That doesn't mean it sucks. |
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| Maxy B | Jul 25 2013, 11:57 AM Post #15 |
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Mid Tier
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I don't know if I approve of these really long posts being here just so you can read them... You thought of what you said, you can't just think back to what you were thinking instead of reading this? EDIT: Also, if anyone needs good Link advice, I feel it's better to just go to Smashboards anyway. |
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