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Advice on a new secondary; It's like a poll!
Topic Started: May 15 2007, 02:59 PM (877 Views)
Ulti
High Tier
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
So over the past few tournaments I've come to realize how relatively stale my game is, and how there's some walls that I'm finding a tad hard to get over. This is probably compounded by lack of any reliable secondary, which mostly consists of whoever I feel like playing at the time.

Anyway, so I'm up for suggestions. Let me just get a few things out of the way first:

1. I'm not switching mains even if the new character is better than Ganon.
2. Please don't put down Fox/Falco/any character that can DJC including Peach. I don't want to practice my tech skill, as I still need to master Ganon's largely simple techniques. No IC's either - they confuse me. Also I don;t care about flashiness/fun-ness. I'm at the point (I think) where winning is immensely fun >.>
3. I'm mostly looking for someone who does reasonably well against Sheik and C.Falc, and to a lesser extent against high tiers in general. This is the most important part I guess.
4. I might still choose someone else. I'm just looking for advice.

That's really it I guess. Thanks.

Oh, off the top of my head, I was thinking either Sheik, Marth, or Falcon.
I had fun with Falcon this Sat, but meh.
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D.Disciple
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BlueWolf25
May 15 2007, 09:07 PM
D.Disciple
May 15 2007, 08:30 PM
Go with Marth, he has a pretty good time dealing with Captain Falcon, and Shiek.

Marth has a terrible time with Sheik. She has many moves (ftilt and bair in particular) that can compete with Marth's range, and if she gets a grab it's dthrow cg -> ftilts -> fair and edgeguard for the stock. That's not an exaggeration either. Marth spends the entire match in the center of the stage spamming fairs trying to prevent Sheik from sneaking in a grab or ftilt.

Marth vs. Falcon is an even matchup, mostly because Falcon loses a stock if he gets off the edge. Marth again has to play a defensive, fairing game, because Falcon can dart in and out of his range more quickly than any other character and Marth has no projectiles to restrict his movement. If Falcon manages to get a grab/combo starter off of Marth, it's likely to end in lots of damage/a stock. On the other hand, if Marth can get in a few hits or a short combo to get Falcon off the edge, Falcon is most likely going to lose a stock.

I agree with you against the Marth vs Falcon match up.

Also I do agree on the fair points of a Marth vs Shiek match up, it is true that she can get a dthrow cg, but that is a mock chain grab that usually should not be the ending result of Marth, the Marth should be able to DI out of it before she can get set up to ftilting into fair kills, like she can against many characters.

Yes playing defensive it what the Marth player would usually spend doing, but if a Marth gets a chance of keeping the Shiek above him, Marth can rape her with utilts, to shffl uairs, and or just carry her to the other side of the stage with a string of fairs and ending it with a dair spike. Also if the Marth fails to get fair, he can immediately land it and poke her away with dtilts, rendering her chance of dash dancing into a grab for trying to abuse the lag. I'm not saying it's unlikely for the Shiek to grab a Marth, because she can use many things to set up into a grab, and also her tilts are also things you should worry about as well in that match up. But I'm saying that Marth still has a good time, I mean you can develop mindgames, knowing when and where the Shiek will go so you can anticipate their motives, if she techs, you can chase her into another grab and then follow into another set.

But if we're talking about if a Shiek and Marth were to go at it on a stage with no platforms or barely any like Mute City and FD then I would not go Marth against a Shiek player.
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mastr0fmyd0main3
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!! BAKA !!
May 16 2007, 02:29 AM
but im suppose to be the only doc :(!!!!

lawl. didn't you ever see mine? It's what I use to beat bluewolf and yoshii
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Endless Nightmares
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Ever considered Samus? I don't know about her matchups with Sheik/CFalc (I find neither to be difficult), but she doesn't require much tech skill IMO. Samus is fun n stuf. Her dair is reatively stomp-like. >_> Plus she's heavy with good recovery and has quick moves. Oh and she's floaty so she doesn't get combo'd as much as Ganon.

She's not a power character like Ganon but she's pretty effective. I like to think of Samus as a finesse character.
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BlueWolf25
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D.Disciple
May 15 2007, 10:55 PM
I agree with you against the Marth vs Falcon match up.

Also I do agree on the fair points of a Marth vs Shiek match up, it is true that she can get a dthrow cg, but that is a mock chain grab that usually should not be the ending result of Marth, the Marth should be able to DI out of it before she can get set up to ftilting into fair kills, like she can against many characters.

Yes playing defensive it what the Marth player would usually spend doing, but if a Marth gets a chance of keeping the Shiek above him, Marth can rape her with utilts, to shffl uairs, and or just carry her to the other side of the stage with a string of fairs and ending it with a dair spike. Also if the Marth fails to get fair, he can immediately land it and poke her away with dtilts, rendering her chance of dash dancing into a grab for trying to abuse the lag. I'm not saying it's unlikely for the Shiek to grab a Marth, because she can use many things to set up into a grab, and also her tilts are also things you should worry about as well in that match up. But I'm saying that Marth still has a good time, I mean you can develop mindgames, knowing when and where the Shiek will go so you can anticipate their motives, if she techs, you can chase her into another grab  and then follow into another set.

But if we're talking about if a Shiek and Marth were to go at it on a stage with no platforms or barely any like Mute City and FD then I would not go Marth against a Shiek player.

It's true that the cg can be broken at low damages with backward DI, but if Marth tries to DI behind, he's going to get usmashed into uair juggles.

There are two aspects of this matchup that I think you might be missing. First, this is one of the few matchups where the Sheik is not going to be looking for grabs to set up. Marth just has too much range, and she's not going to try dash dancing or any of that, because she has a terrible dash dance and a relatively short wave dash. However, all Sheik really needs to do to set Marth up for some damage dealing is land a ftilt, which has comparative range to Marth's aerials, or CC an fair into a dtilt.

Secondly, when facing a Marth the Sheik player is going to be sticking like glue to the ground, throwing needles to interrupt Marth's approach, crouch cancelling his aerials and using dsmash to get room if Marth gets too close for comfort. Meanwhile, Marth is going to be approaching with aerials, which means that he's likely going to be fighting from above and to the side, especially since he's going to be hopping needles until he gets close. Yes, Marth can really mess a Sheik player up if he manages to get her above him, but he's going to be spending most of the match either above or at the same level as Sheik, and a good Sheik is going to make it very hard for him to get her off the ground.

Sheik has the projectile advantage, the position advantage, and she has much better and easier to execute combos than Marth does. I'm not saying that Marth is completely helpless, but it is a sizable disadvantage.
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!! BAKA !!
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so much reading @_@
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D.Disciple
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Aye I did neglect to mention the needles of Shiek.
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illboyzeus
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Sheik vs. Marth is terrible, but not doable. It mainly depends on your style of Marth, if your one of the Marth who know how to combo and punish mistakes, it is significantly easier. If Sheik can have you playing the defensive the entire time then, you are at a large disadvantage. Sheik on FD is really not that hard, powershield her needles and stay on the ground, and land grabs. All of marth grabs can lead to big damage on a Sheik. The object of this match is to be aggresive and not letting Sheik set up and camp, but still knowing when to back off. Mindgames FTW. I personally will play against a Sheik in a tourney with Marth, cuz once you got her tendecies down its cake.

PS: I know Sheik has the advantage, but she doesn't just automatically rape Marth.
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sparrow
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What's more important than what should work in any given matchup is what works for you.
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mastr0fmyd0main3
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That was touching. But really, C. falcon has an incredibly easy time comboing Marth no matter how he DIs. It's pathetic. So if Falcon and Sheik are the two characters you're looking to get an edge on, Marth is not the obvious choice.
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Ulti
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Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll think about this a bit.

D - I'll see what I got going on then PM you.
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illboyzeus
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Sorry to tell you ulti, but the list is slim for people who can handle both Sheik and Falcon. It's basically Fox/Falco and maybe doc. Those are the only ones I can think of who have a pretty good advantage on both.
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Ulti
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I figured about as much, although I can think of a few that do better than Ganon, which is what I need.
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!! BAKA !!
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illboyzeus
May 16 2007, 09:26 PM
Sorry to tell you ulti, but the list is slim for people who can handle both Sheik and Falcon. It's basically Fox/Falco and maybe doc. Those are the only ones I can think of who have a pretty good advantage on both.

so not even jiggs? the one character i have problems with? oh my im excited.
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sparrow
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Marth can combo CFal just as well as CFal can combo Marth. Plus Marth has edgegaurding advantages, and range to abuse.
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mastr0fmyd0main3
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James Sparrow
May 16 2007, 10:53 PM
Marth can combo CFal just as well as CFal can combo Marth. Plus Marth has edgegaurding advantages, and range to abuse.

The biggest reason marth pwns falcon is edge guarding.
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