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Teachers Unions; August 3 Editorial
Topic Started: Aug 3 2010, 01:38 PM (1,247 Views)
Ava
Member Avatar
So what? Who cares?
cecelia
Aug 6 2010, 02:38 PM
Ava
Aug 6 2010, 02:09 PM
cecelia
Aug 6 2010, 12:30 PM
Ava
Aug 6 2010, 11:43 AM
Otis B.
Aug 6 2010, 11:21 AM
Not many people are talking about 'horrible' teachers. That is a myth being perpetuated by the unions.

People ARE talking about ineffective school districts and administrations, and how we need to dismantle the old structures that are holding back students and teachers from truly achieving. Yes, making it easier to remove ineffective teachers is a part of that equation, but only a part.

Of course, the unions are propagandizing that everyone is out to get ALL the teachers because they need to rally their membership. They have a vested interest in the old ways of doing things.

The MEA uses the media to get their message out as well. Poor teachers......"enough is enough".....it's all about the kids...blah, blah, blah. Lies, all lies. They just want to maintain their membership and the status quo! It's not about the kids!


With your sort of thinking, the private schools will continue to have full classes. Just maybe there will be another opportunity for vouchers. It would be really nice if the public education system had to compete to maintain their students. Why is it that the private schools can provide an education, with a better cirriculum, for about 25-30% of the cost of public schools?

They can do it because they do not pay a living wage. I have been a Catholic school teacher. I quit when I had my first child because day care for my baby was just about the same as my salary. My mother taught in a Catholic school after she was widowed with school age children. I am not exaggerating when I say that putting food on the table was a challenge. She was only able to keep our very modest home because of an inheritance she received from her parents which enabled her to pay off the mortgage. We all paid our own way through college.

Do you sincerely believe that you can get enough young people to go into debt to get an education for a hand to mouth life? You are going to ask how they get enough private school teachers now? Two of my relatives teach in Catholic schools. Their spouses are both successful professionals. They teach because they love to teach, just as I do, and because they love the Catholic church and see this as a contribution to something they believe in. I applaud what they do.
What about the public school curriculum, Cecelia? With one third of Michigan's budget going toward public education, you would think the schools would offer a top-notch curriculum. Why is it that private schools are able to offer better curriculum? Where exactly are all those public dollars going? Could this be one of the reasons private schools outperform public schools? They are obviously doing something different because they are able to achieve better results with less money.
Sorry, but I don't see any real evidence of private schools offering a better curriculum. They offer one size fits all curriculum which is good for many children. Other children exist, however, and deserve an education which is appropriate for them. This is also mandated by law. Private schools are under no obligation to teach children with developmental or physical disabilities. These children are extremely expensive to teach. Think about this:
I have 28 students in my class. One teacher, one teacher salary.
Center classrooms have about 12 children. One teacher, one teacher salary. One paraprofessional, one paraprofessional salary.
Classrooms for the autistic have four or five students, one teacher, one teacher salary and usually two paraprofessionals with two paraprofessional salaries.
Are you surprised that public schools spend more money on salaries?
As they say, the "proof" is in the pudding. My kids started out in public school, and they were doing poorly. After one year in the private school, they are above average. I have my "evidence." Private schools do offer assistance to kids that need it. It's just not true that they turn children away. They have learning specialists that work with kids that are behind. Many of kids needing help are coming from the public schools.

BTW, I have nothing against using public funds to educate children who have developmental or physical disabilities. The government should provide funds to educate this group. I agree, they are entitled to an education that is appropriate for them. I also think the government should allow me use my tax dollars at the educational institution of my choice.
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Vanna White
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Veteran
IDK
Aug 6 2010, 08:30 AM
Vanna White
Aug 5 2010, 09:39 PM
IDK
Aug 5 2010, 08:30 PM
Vanna White
Aug 5 2010, 09:14 AM
It is truely a shame that the "community," who are ultimately the paying customers, are labled as "tyrants." There are certainly always some people (customers) who are really unreasonable, but they are a small minority. Just about every business deals with them on occasion. The majority of the public who would be involved in school matters are good people that simply want the best for their children and their community. In addition, is there really so little faith in the leadership of our school districts that teachers actually believe that without a union there would be dire consequences based on "whim" rather than facts? This is pretty sad.
I have absolutely no faith in the leadership of our schools. I have experienced vandalism from parents at a personal cost of $300.00 to my car, I have had to be locked in a classroom to protect me from an irate parent that had previously physically attacked another teacher, I have endured verbal attacks from parents with no support or protection from my "leadership".
Physical safety of employees is important in any workplace, particularly those that are open to the general public. Threats and violence should be dealt with swiftly and effectively by leadership and, in some cases, the police. How exactly did the tenure system or the union help you with these unfortunate episodes?
You asked about faith in the leadership of our schools and these are examples where the leadership failed me just this year. There are many, many more stories that illustrate that teachers cannot rely on the "leaders". You mentioned that unreasonable customers are a small minority, they're not. While every year I usually have at least one wonderful supportive parent, those that verbally complain about everything are increasing in number and those that are dangerous are increasing also. I have children in LPS and I have stood at the sidelines during their sports games and listened as parents critique the schools and the teachers and it's always negative. Even those wonderful parents stand silent, and I don't blame them - it's easier than trying to defend schools or teachers in this current atmosphere where many feel there is nothing right about schools or teachers. I am open to change in tenure but without the union...
Who am I to count on?
Just because parents talk amongst each other about their complaints with schools doesn't make them "unreasonable." People do have a right to complain and a right to their opinions, as long as they don't cross the line into anything illegal, like threats and violence. I overhear people complaining about my industry all the time and on the news. The bottom line is that customers sometimes complain, something that is not unique to education.

My reference to trusting leadership related to the tenure system and the "whim" of the public. The article seemed to imply that without tenure and a union to protect them, teachers would be terminated on a "whim" by the "tyrannical community." Even though I often disagree with the district's leaders including the BOE, I really don't think they would start firing teachers for no good reason just because one of the community tyrants made a complaint.

I would always defend your right to a safe work environment, but unfortunately you cannot really avoid getting some complaints from parents in your line of work.
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ppplivonia
Advanced Member
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"Even though I often disagree with the district's leaders including the BOE, I really don't think they would start firing teachers for no good reason just because one of the community tyrants made a complaint."

Funny you should say this. "The district's leaders including the BOE" called in the police and had a community member removed from an open public board meeting because he chose to make a complaint. Others have been forcibly removed from the podium for the same reason. If they do this to community members what would they to to a teacher? The same mindset is at play here.

Also, to Vana:
"In addition, is there really so little faith in the leadership of our school districts that teachers actually believe that without a union there would be dire consequences based on "whim" rather than facts? "

Yes! Vana...I have seen this countless times and at LPS.
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Otis B.
Veteran
If the district were to fire people on a whim, they would be bankrupted from all of the lawsuits they would be fighting.

More union scare tactics. Don't believe the hype.
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Vanna White
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Veteran
ppplivonia
Aug 7 2010, 04:52 AM
"Even though I often disagree with the district's leaders including the BOE, I really don't think they would start firing teachers for no good reason just because one of the community tyrants made a complaint."

Funny you should say this. "The district's leaders including the BOE" called in the police and had a community member removed from an open public board meeting because he chose to make a complaint. Others have been forcibly removed from the podium for the same reason. If they do this to community members what would they to to a teacher? The same mindset is at play here.

Also, to Vana:
"In addition, is there really so little faith in the leadership of our school districts that teachers actually believe that without a union there would be dire consequences based on "whim" rather than facts? "

Yes! Vana...I have seen this countless times and at LPS.
The BOE does treat some community members very badly, but they just love teachers.
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Ava
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So what? Who cares?
Vanna White
Aug 7 2010, 10:42 AM
ppplivonia
Aug 7 2010, 04:52 AM
"Even though I often disagree with the district's leaders including the BOE, I really don't think they would start firing teachers for no good reason just because one of the community tyrants made a complaint."

Funny you should say this. "The district's leaders including the BOE" called in the police and had a community member removed from an open public board meeting because he chose to make a complaint. Others have been forcibly removed from the podium for the same reason. If they do this to community members what would they to to a teacher? The same mindset is at play here.

Also, to Vana:
"In addition, is there really so little faith in the leadership of our school districts that teachers actually believe that without a union there would be dire consequences based on "whim" rather than facts? "

Yes! Vana...I have seen this countless times and at LPS.
The BOE does treat some community members very badly, but they just love teachers.
Yes, the Livonia BOE loves teachers! How else would they get a seat on the board? Loyalty has its rewards. ;)
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daytripper75
Advanced Member
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ppplivonia
Aug 6 2010, 09:55 AM
I'm not saying that the 'existing' tenure laws are the answer, for there has been major abuses, but when your pay stub is one step away from a frenzied public, look out.
I'm a librarian. My pay stub has been one step away from a frenzied public since 1998 and somehow I've made it through without tenure or a union.

I don't think that any of the pro-union rhetoric here is that convincing. Sorry.
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