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Observer Letter to the editor (sacrifice)
Topic Started: Aug 6 2009, 07:40 PM (5,011 Views)
Micki
I love teaching.
Yep. I know there are times when I need access to information and I wish I could find it.

I wonder how many other districts have a site like this?
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fhsalumni
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
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Monkfish
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
So, I gather because LPSreformer chose to list the names and salaries that you now agree that those at the top should receive raises while those at the bottom should take a pay cut and/or lose their positions?
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Al Beabak
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Monkfish
Aug 8 2009, 06:30 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
So, I gather because LPSreformer chose to list the names and salaries that you now agree that those at the top should receive raises while those at the bottom should take a pay cut and/or lose their positions?
Manipulating the data for statistical studies is one thing, showing the full, open, and honest truth is another necessary requirement of open government. As someone else had put it earlier, if you don't want to know don't look, if you don't want it known, don't work for an entity which taxpayers pay your salaries, it just quite that simple. Otherwise, stop whining, you live in a democracy - and remember your government classes from high school which taught you that this was how our nation was formed and why.If anyone is so naive to think that it should be any different then you need to move to a socialist nation and keep your mouth shut... PERIOD.

I don't disagree with posting the data, I just wish it did not have to come to this conclusion to obtain it. It clearly shows that there are games being played with the taxpayers monies, as well as games being played with the most valuable employees the district has, those that work with your children face to face on a daily basis.

It clearly shows who has been given preference, raises, and been excluded from the cuts, increases in co-pays, and exclusions from raises - those who do not live in the district who continue to reap the huge raises, benefits & protection of the central office. I can't continue to support my childrens schools when I can see what is so obvious and blatant in its negligence and operation.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen over the last several years, I will not be able to support any renewal of any ballot issues for a millage, nor will I ever be able to support any request for a sale of bonds that will put us further in debt. LPS currently has 10-20 years worth of bonds still yet to be paid off, why would we want to incur any further debt in today's economy? The so-called leadership of this school district is failing our children for the benefit of the few, at the expense of the many, and our students future.


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Mrs.M
Veteran
Just some thoughts

Indeed looking at the salary list is a choice. I'm sure there are even LPS employees who have accessed it "just to see how much does so and so makes?" :o

Is it comparable to:

checking what the downturned card is on the solitaire pile?
(nobody knows you looked, except yourself)

or

is it more like checking who donated what and how much to a certain candidate's election.

or

how much a person sold or paid for their home, its SEV and taxes - - all public information.


I know some teenagers that are thinking, "WOW, I want to be a teacher."

I suppose a teacher could get a job with a private or parochial school, but I don't think the salaries are comparable.
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
The salary list DOES NOT illustrate how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. They are paid based on a bachelors or masters degree and on number of years in the district. There is NO pay based on "talent". There is NO merit pay in this scale. Those who earn more have Master degrees and have been with LPS for many years - 15 or more.
Just wanted to clarify that misconception.
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Ms. AK
Veteran
Someone who's privy to the contract, please correct me:

But I thought LPS teachers w/masters and 11 or 12 years of service max at about $75,000--not including yearly incrementals or "steps" or COLA? Sorry, not sure on the terminology.




Krome on Cars

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LPS Reformer
Member Avatar
The schools exist to educate, not employ.
UglyBetty
Aug 8 2009, 09:21 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
The salary list DOES NOT illustrate how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. They are paid based on a bachelors or masters degree and on number of years in the district. There is NO pay based on "talent". There is NO merit pay in this scale. Those who earn more have Master degrees and have been with LPS for many years - 15 or more.
Just wanted to clarify that misconception.
Of course it does.

Everyone has seen a teacher who goes above and beyond what is expected of them. A techer who listens to their concerns, makes themselves available, and makes difficult topics understandable better than their peers.

Everyone has also seen a teacher who does as little as they can get away with. A teacher who is patronizing to parents, and teaches with a cookie cutter, one size fits all approach.

Every wonder which one is paid better?
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Micki
I love teaching.
So, is this list about cutting from the top or about analyzing teacher's and deciding which one needs to be paid what???

I am of the mind set that it would have been more appropriate to remove the names and group them. This isn't about how teacher's are paid. This supposedly was about how much the higher ups are paid verses the other positions.

If this thread is to analyze teachers and point out their faults, flaws, and then decide how much to pay them or how much they deserve, that is different and in my opinion, out of line.
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bjorenson
Member Avatar
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Micki
Aug 9 2009, 11:06 AM
So, is this list about cutting from the top or about analyzing teacher's and deciding which one needs to be paid what???

I am of the mind set that it would have been more appropriate to remove the names and group them. This isn't about how teacher's are paid. This supposedly was about how much the higher ups are paid verses the other positions.

If this thread is to analyze teachers and point out their faults, flaws, and then decide how much to pay them or how much they deserve, that is different and in my opinion, out of line.
Exactly.
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LPS Reformer
Member Avatar
The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Micki
Aug 9 2009, 11:06 AM
So, is this list about cutting from the top or about analyzing teacher's and deciding which one needs to be paid what???

I am of the mind set that it would have been more appropriate to remove the names and group them. This isn't about how teacher's are paid. This supposedly was about how much the higher ups are paid verses the other positions.

If this thread is to analyze teachers and point out their faults, flaws, and then decide how much to pay them or how much they deserve, that is different and in my opinion, out of line.
The information is made available to the public via FOIA so that the public can keep track of how the schools are spending taxpayer money.

By all means, use the information to answer questions as you see fit.

I wrote the letter to protest the practice of squeezing money out of the lowest paid employees to pay for raises to the highest paid. However, there are many reasons to review the information.

In this economy, ALL employees of LPS will be making sacrifice. Nothing is going to change that. The better the public understands where we are, the better it will decide where to go.

“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Deleted User
Deleted User

fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 12:09 PM
hangin' in
Aug 8 2009, 11:09 AM
LPS Reformer
Aug 7 2009, 07:13 PM
UglyBetty
Aug 7 2009, 08:40 AM
Hangin' in - I 100% agree with you. I think posting this was out of line and ridiculous. LPS Reformer has FOIA'd this information, but I think posting the entire list is unnecessary and not utilized for the intended purpose of acquiring the information. ^o)
From the FOIA statute:

15.231. Short title; public policy.

Sec. 1. (1) This act shall be known and may be
cited as the “Freedom of Information Act.”

(2) It is the public policy of this state that all
persons, except those persons incarcerated in
state or local correctional facilities, are entitled to
full and complete information regarding the affairs
of government and the official acts of those
who represent them as public officials and public
employees, consistent with this Act. The people
shall be informed so that they may fully participate
in the democratic process.


Look at the state of school funding in Michigan. Now look at the votes you will be called on to make. If the public does not know how their money is being spent, then how will they be able to make an informed vote? The time for just trusting LPS to do the right thing is long gone.
I never said that the public didn't have a right to know salaries. You could have easily broken it down into 200 teachers make 74,000 or whatever. It is a jerky thing to do to put a teachers name (who is not even involved in central office decision making) to their salary for the pure sake of making a point.
You don't need the names to make a point, posting them is just a power trip, look what I can do! In fact, breaking down the list, 20 teachers at $74,000 etc makes the point more emphatic and logical. If you go through the hoops to get this info FOIA'd, why not summarize it to make your point? The posting of names connected with salary and building assignment has been debated at length on this site. Yes, we are public employees. Yes, if you want to know what I make, you should FOIA it yourself. I think in posting the whole list, more than just the 6 figure club is being targeted. It is my opinion, possibly shared by others, and according to the constitution of our country, I'm allowed to express it, as LPS Reformer did when he posted my salary. I respect his right, I expect my opinion to be respected as well and not see this thread take on a nasty tone.
fhs - are you saying you don't have a problem if Reformer's purpose is to target the 6 figure club? Because if you look at the many veteran teachers in the $80,000+ range and consider they do not work 52 weeks a years, figure out their weekly rate multiply it by 52 weeks, you will see that if they worked a normal work year like most people, they would be members of that 6 figure club! That does not even take into account the fact that they work less than 8 hours per day. Take that into account, and whew! Yet those same teachers received a raise this year also, because, oh my, we can't give steps to the other teachers and leave the highest paid teachers at their previous year's level! They have forgotten they already received all of their steps. Talk about greed! What about the kids these teachers profess to care so much about? Are we to believe that money in their pockets make them better teachers to our children? I don't think so.

I know that the argument here will be that many teachers put in many of their own hours working at home. So do the rest of us! Not to mention working late and on weekends. And without paid overtime. And I think we all have children who are using valuable class time correcting their own papers; something the teachers should be doing on their prep time or during their at-home work hours. I am not grouping all teachers together here, but we all have experienced the teachers who leave work the minute the kids are released from school. Or teachers who should never be in the teaching profession, as well as many who would not be were it not for the high pay. We also all know teachers who go above and beyond what is required. But we also all know employees in our own lines of work as well as at the school district who do the same. I will not be attending any pity parties for teachers.

And as for AFSCME, this group has been targeted before in recent contracts because of their vulnerability. This is nothing new. Not right either, but not new. It is past time for AFSCME to be treated fairly instead of constantly being threatened with their jobs.
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LPS_MOM10
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Speaking of the six-figure club........

The average LPS teacher makes about $89,000 (which appears to be true from the list that was provided).

An LPS teacher works 200 days, 6 hours a day. Now, lets equate that to you and I .... we work 52 weeks (or 260 days a year) and 8 hours a day.

Simply divide the LPS teacher salary of $89,000 by 200 = $445 pr day. Then divide $445 by 6 hours a day = $74.16 pr hour. This is the hourly LPS teacher rate.

Now, lets take the $74.16 pr hour and multiply that by 2,080 hours (8 hr pr day x 260 days, the hours that you and I work) = $154,252 !!!!!!

$154,252 is the equivalent LPS teacher salary.

If you add on 7.65% for Employer Paid FICA and another 15% for retirement, that's an additional $34,938. That brings us up to $189,190.

Now add another $12,000 for full family health insurance, we are up to $201,190...........unbelievable!!!!!

An LPS teacher costs OVER $200,000.

IT APPEARS THAT 80% OF THE LPS STAFF IS IN THE SIX-FIGURE STRATOSPHERE!!!!!!!!!!


PS......THANK YOU Lloyd for all your hard work in getting us the straight story!!!! You are a huge service to the taxpaying public!


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Micki
I love teaching.
SLIPPERY SLOPE
Aug 9 2009, 06:12 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 12:09 PM
hangin' in
Aug 8 2009, 11:09 AM
LPS Reformer
Aug 7 2009, 07:13 PM
UglyBetty
Aug 7 2009, 08:40 AM
Hangin' in - I 100% agree with you. I think posting this was out of line and ridiculous. LPS Reformer has FOIA'd this information, but I think posting the entire list is unnecessary and not utilized for the intended purpose of acquiring the information. ^o)
From the FOIA statute:

15.231. Short title; public policy.

Sec. 1. (1) This act shall be known and may be
cited as the “Freedom of Information Act.”

(2) It is the public policy of this state that all
persons, except those persons incarcerated in
state or local correctional facilities, are entitled to
full and complete information regarding the affairs
of government and the official acts of those
who represent them as public officials and public
employees, consistent with this Act. The people
shall be informed so that they may fully participate
in the democratic process.


Look at the state of school funding in Michigan. Now look at the votes you will be called on to make. If the public does not know how their money is being spent, then how will they be able to make an informed vote? The time for just trusting LPS to do the right thing is long gone.
I never said that the public didn't have a right to know salaries. You could have easily broken it down into 200 teachers make 74,000 or whatever. It is a jerky thing to do to put a teachers name (who is not even involved in central office decision making) to their salary for the pure sake of making a point.
You don't need the names to make a point, posting them is just a power trip, look what I can do! In fact, breaking down the list, 20 teachers at $74,000 etc makes the point more emphatic and logical. If you go through the hoops to get this info FOIA'd, why not summarize it to make your point? The posting of names connected with salary and building assignment has been debated at length on this site. Yes, we are public employees. Yes, if you want to know what I make, you should FOIA it yourself. I think in posting the whole list, more than just the 6 figure club is being targeted. It is my opinion, possibly shared by others, and according to the constitution of our country, I'm allowed to express it, as LPS Reformer did when he posted my salary. I respect his right, I expect my opinion to be respected as well and not see this thread take on a nasty tone.
fhs - are you saying you don't have a problem if Reformer's purpose is to target the 6 figure club? Because if you look at the many veteran teachers in the $80,000+ range and consider they do not work 52 weeks a years, figure out their weekly rate multiply it by 52 weeks, you will see that if they worked a normal work year like most people, they would be members of that 6 figure club! That does not even take into account the fact that they work less than 8 hours per day. Take that into account, and whew! Yet those same teachers received a raise this year also, because, oh my, we can't give steps to the other teachers and leave the highest paid teachers at their previous year's level! They have forgotten they already received all of their steps. Talk about greed! What about the kids these teachers profess to care so much about? Are we to believe that money in their pockets make them better teachers to our children? I don't think so.

I know that the argument here will be that many teachers put in many of their own hours working at home. So do the rest of us! Not to mention working late and on weekends. And without paid overtime. And I think we all have children who are using valuable class time correcting their own papers; something the teachers should be doing on their prep time or during their at-home work hours. I am not grouping all teachers together here, but we all have experienced the teachers who leave work the minute the kids are released from school. Or teachers who should never be in the teaching profession, as well as many who would not be were it not for the high pay. We also all know teachers who go above and beyond what is required. But we also all know employees in our own lines of work as well as at the school district who do the same. I will not be attending any pity parties for teachers.

And as for AFSCME, this group has been targeted before in recent contracts because of their vulnerability. This is nothing new. Not right either, but not new. It is past time for AFSCME to be treated fairly instead of constantly being threatened with their jobs.
I don't think you should attend any pity parties. I'm not planning any. I love my job, my work schedule, the children I teach, etc... I hope that you have as much joy in the profession that you chose where you work 52 weeks a year. (Hopefully you get a vacation...) I won't be having a pity party for you either. No arguments or defending here. I chose this career for many reasons (not in this particular order):

1. I can support my family while my husband stays home with the kids.
2. I am off while my children are off of school which I love.
3. I am a natural born teacher and LOVE what I do.
4. The pension
5. The joy in preparing the road for a young one

It is the most rewarding job I have ever had and I wouldn't trade it for the world. You don't ever have to pity me. It would be a waste.

I hope hope that you have as much joy in your career that you CHOSE.

Just as an add on: Teacher's don't make over $200,000 a year because they don't work 52 weeks of the year. That is just ludicrous and stupid to try to make that point. Now, if I worked 52 weeks I am sure the district would NOT pay me that salary. That is completey hypothetical and serves the purpose of trying to cause dissension. At least when Lloyd makes a point he isn't trying to make things into something they aren't and works with real facts and figures.
Edited by Micki, Aug 9 2009, 09:20 PM.
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LPS Reformer
Member Avatar
The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Wether you feel teachers are under paid, over paid, or right were they should be, you have to consider the cost to the district (in other words to the taxpayers) to employ them.

I'm not sure I follow the $200,000 amount, but the cost to employ a teacher (or anyone else for that matter) is far greater than the cost of their salary. The taxes, healthcare, and pension program that teachers have increases the cost, and lowers the number of teachers we can afford to employ.

“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Micki
I love teaching.
You are right. All of those things do add up.
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fhsalumni
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Monkfish
Aug 8 2009, 06:30 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
So, I gather because LPSreformer chose to list the names and salaries that you now agree that those at the top should receive raises while those at the bottom should take a pay cut and/or lose their positions?
How did you get that? IMO it's disrespectful to post names with salaries, public employees or not. Posting the names is a way to show power, not make a point. You get more bees with honey. More residents may share in LPS Reformer's belief if he would show more discretion and respect for those employees who are not his target.

Are there people who make more than they deserve? Absolutely. Are there employees who don't make enough for their positions, absolutely. Most people knew that before the list was published.
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fhsalumni
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
LPS Reformer
Aug 9 2009, 10:12 AM
UglyBetty
Aug 8 2009, 09:21 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 06:18 PM
LPS Reformer
Aug 8 2009, 12:28 PM
Each individual member of the public does not have the time or inclination of going through the FOIA process with LPS. However, not only is this information a public right, it serves a useful purpase. People should be able to look at who is being paid what.

The almost universal response I receive, from those who never thought about school salaries in the first place, is that we pay all of our employees more than they would have thought. When they look at individual Admins, the response is even more emphatic.

Now, why not just put them in groups? First, it allows people to see the acuraccy of the data being grouped. Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. The merit system does not apply to teacher contracts. It also acts as a check on nepotism, and cronyism, by letting the public use their collective knowledge of an individual, and decide if the position is being filled by someone qualified for the position (Ms. Chomicz comes to mind).

The real question is why is it so difficult for the public to see this information in the first place.
Further, it also illistrates how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid.

That quote is not a valid reason to post all names with their building assignment and salary.

You know every teacher on the list and have sat in each classroom to know where their talents lie? I don't think so.

So, why not group it to make the data easier to compare? Your response is not clear. Most times, data is gathered, disaggregated, then published for people to analyze and formulate opinions on or to further one's viewpoint. Your argument would carry far more weight (and respect) if you had eliminated names and grouped the data. Instead, you may have alienated some allies. Just my opinion.
The salary list DOES NOT illustrate how teachers of varying degrees of talent are paid. They are paid based on a bachelors or masters degree and on number of years in the district. There is NO pay based on "talent". There is NO merit pay in this scale. Those who earn more have Master degrees and have been with LPS for many years - 15 or more.
Just wanted to clarify that misconception.
Of course it does.

Everyone has seen a teacher who goes above and beyond what is expected of them. A techer who listens to their concerns, makes themselves available, and makes difficult topics understandable better than their peers.

Everyone has also seen a teacher who does as little as they can get away with. A teacher who is patronizing to parents, and teaches with a cookie cutter, one size fits all approach.

Every wonder which one is paid better?
Yes, who is paid better?
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fhsalumni
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Aug 9 2009, 03:18 PM
Micki
Aug 9 2009, 11:06 AM
So, is this list about cutting from the top or about analyzing teacher's and deciding which one needs to be paid what???

I am of the mind set that it would have been more appropriate to remove the names and group them. This isn't about how teacher's are paid. This supposedly was about how much the higher ups are paid verses the other positions.

If this thread is to analyze teachers and point out their faults, flaws, and then decide how much to pay them or how much they deserve, that is different and in my opinion, out of line.
The information is made available to the public via FOIA so that the public can keep track of how the schools are spending taxpayer money.

By all means, use the information to answer questions as you see fit.

I wrote the letter to protest the practice of squeezing money out of the lowest paid employees to pay for raises to the highest paid. However, there are many reasons to review the information.

In this economy, ALL employees of LPS will be making sacrifice. Nothing is going to change that. The better the public understands where we are, the better it will decide where to go.

Nice tap dance!
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fhsalumni
Advanced Member
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SLIPPERY SLOPE
Aug 9 2009, 06:12 PM
fhsalumni
Aug 8 2009, 12:09 PM
hangin' in
Aug 8 2009, 11:09 AM
LPS Reformer
Aug 7 2009, 07:13 PM
UglyBetty
Aug 7 2009, 08:40 AM
Hangin' in - I 100% agree with you. I think posting this was out of line and ridiculous. LPS Reformer has FOIA'd this information, but I think posting the entire list is unnecessary and not utilized for the intended purpose of acquiring the information. ^o)
From the FOIA statute:

15.231. Short title; public policy.

Sec. 1. (1) This act shall be known and may be
cited as the “Freedom of Information Act.”

(2) It is the public policy of this state that all
persons, except those persons incarcerated in
state or local correctional facilities, are entitled to
full and complete information regarding the affairs
of government and the official acts of those
who represent them as public officials and public
employees, consistent with this Act. The people
shall be informed so that they may fully participate
in the democratic process.


Look at the state of school funding in Michigan. Now look at the votes you will be called on to make. If the public does not know how their money is being spent, then how will they be able to make an informed vote? The time for just trusting LPS to do the right thing is long gone.
I never said that the public didn't have a right to know salaries. You could have easily broken it down into 200 teachers make 74,000 or whatever. It is a jerky thing to do to put a teachers name (who is not even involved in central office decision making) to their salary for the pure sake of making a point.
You don't need the names to make a point, posting them is just a power trip, look what I can do! In fact, breaking down the list, 20 teachers at $74,000 etc makes the point more emphatic and logical. If you go through the hoops to get this info FOIA'd, why not summarize it to make your point? The posting of names connected with salary and building assignment has been debated at length on this site. Yes, we are public employees. Yes, if you want to know what I make, you should FOIA it yourself. I think in posting the whole list, more than just the 6 figure club is being targeted. It is my opinion, possibly shared by others, and according to the constitution of our country, I'm allowed to express it, as LPS Reformer did when he posted my salary. I respect his right, I expect my opinion to be respected as well and not see this thread take on a nasty tone.
fhs - are you saying you don't have a problem if Reformer's purpose is to target the 6 figure club? Because if you look at the many veteran teachers in the $80,000+ range and consider they do not work 52 weeks a years, figure out their weekly rate multiply it by 52 weeks, you will see that if they worked a normal work year like most people, they would be members of that 6 figure club! That does not even take into account the fact that they work less than 8 hours per day. Take that into account, and whew! Yet those same teachers received a raise this year also, because, oh my, we can't give steps to the other teachers and leave the highest paid teachers at their previous year's level! They have forgotten they already received all of their steps. Talk about greed! What about the kids these teachers profess to care so much about? Are we to believe that money in their pockets make them better teachers to our children? I don't think so.

I know that the argument here will be that many teachers put in many of their own hours working at home. So do the rest of us! Not to mention working late and on weekends. And without paid overtime. And I think we all have children who are using valuable class time correcting their own papers; something the teachers should be doing on their prep time or during their at-home work hours. I am not grouping all teachers together here, but we all have experienced the teachers who leave work the minute the kids are released from school. Or teachers who should never be in the teaching profession, as well as many who would not be were it not for the high pay. We also all know teachers who go above and beyond what is required. But we also all know employees in our own lines of work as well as at the school district who do the same. I will not be attending any pity parties for teachers.

And as for AFSCME, this group has been targeted before in recent contracts because of their vulnerability. This is nothing new. Not right either, but not new. It is past time for AFSCME to be treated fairly instead of constantly being threatened with their jobs.
I agree, our AFCSME employees are taking the brunt and I don't like it either, unfortunately, I'm not at the table. Privatizing them would be a detriment to our district. We already are short one custodian 1-2 days a week and between my class and myself, we pick up everything off the floor so all that must be done is to have our trash emptied.

Yep, I do a lot of work at home. I am one of those teachers that leave within 10 minutes of my students leaving. I have my own children at home that need to be taken to Religious Ed, practices, games, drivers ed, etc and I do homework with them every night before even starting on my own "homework" sometime after 9pm. I check 95% of all work turned in by my students then I know who is struggling in certain areas. Some of us are still in grad school or taking our required hours on our time without reimbursement from anyone. Some of us attend workshops and seminars throughout the summer, read professional books, plan with colleagues, etc. I didn't ask for a pity party, this is the profession I chose because I knew I would love going to work everyday and would never tire of my job. I certainly didn't choose it for the summer off. I stated my opinion in regards to posting names, you are entitled to your own as well.
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