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Lucas McGrail: A Man for the 21st Century; BY ANNA KROME
Topic Started: Jul 2 2009, 06:33 PM (3,777 Views)
Lucas McGrail
Member
[ *  * ]
uh-oh
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
So, are you on the right or the left? Critical to me!
Good evening UhOh

Thanks for your question. First let me ask why it matters? Shouldn't a voters support be based on experience, knowledge and what they are capable of doing for the community in which they would like to serve? To me, its not about being on the left or right, its about doing right. Government is meant to be an instrument of good, a place where people can come together. That is what may campaign is about. To put an end to our fracturing of government. I think Spencer Tracy said it best when he said "If we don't all pull together, we'll all pull apart."

If being left or right still matters to you, then I am uncertain how to answer. Can you tell me what your definition of what someone on the left or right is?

So, since I don't like to label myself, I must ask again, please tell me how you define those two labels, then perhaps I can give you a more specific answer. But the one thing I wish to reinforce that its not about left or right, its about doing right. I would like the opportunity to do right for the community.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Lucas McGrail
Jul 16 2009, 11:07 PM
LPS Reformer
Jul 16 2009, 07:54 PM
Would you be in favor of Livonia posting the salaries of all it's employees online?
Good evening LPS Reformer
Thank you for addressing me directly with your question. That is a tough question based solely on how you asked it. Do you mean for all of its employees as a blanket statement, or just its elected officials? Do you mean to have the salaries listed by the employees name and position with specific salaries or just the current filled positions with the current salary range? If you would just clarify I could give a more detailed response.

However, if you would like a response to your question based solely on what you have written, then I believe that posting that information on line would be redundant. If I am not mistaken, city records like that are, by law, required to be provided if a citizen files a Freedom of Information Act request. So my follow up question is why would the information need to be available through FOIA and also on-line?

I look forward to your clarifications so I may better respond to your question.
The more open and accessable the information, the more likely it will be seen, and reviewed by those of us paying for the work. Further, having it on the City's website would give residents a convenient place to look for the information.

The more open the government has to be, the less inclined they become to push the limits.

FOIA is great, but you have to know what to ask for. Posting the salaries gives the public the ability to not only see who is making what, but how many are making what, and what they are doing to earn it.
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Lucas McGrail
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Anna Krome
Jul 17 2009, 11:58 AM
Lucas McGrail
Jul 16 2009, 11:07 PM
LPS Reformer
Jul 16 2009, 07:54 PM
Would you be in favor of Livonia posting the salaries of all it's employees online?
Good evening LPS Reformer
Thank you for addressing me directly with your question. That is a tough question based solely on how you asked it. Do you mean for all of its employees as a blanket statement, or just its elected officials? Do you mean to have the salaries listed by the employees name and position with specific salaries or just the current filled positions with the current salary range? If you would just clarify I could give a more detailed response.

However, if you would like a response to your question based solely on what you have written, then I believe that posting that information on line would be redundant. If I am not mistaken, city records like that are, by law, required to be provided if a citizen files a Freedom of Information Act request. So my follow up question is why would the information need to be available through FOIA and also on-line?

I look forward to your clarifications so I may better respond to your question.
Here's an editorial from the recent DetNews to provide some perspective on why it is imperative that the public no longer be required to FOIA for what is, afterall, the public's information.

Even the conservative DetNews says that it is high-time local government entities, including school districts, put all expenditures, including salaries, online for taxpayer review. The paper even encourages vigilant taxpayers, such as those on livonianeighbors, to demand what is, afterall, public information. The necessity to FOIA for public information must end.


http://www.detnews.com/article/20090714/OPINION01/907140311/1008/opinion01/Editorial--Here-comes-the-sun


Editorial: Here comes the sun
Movement to bring transparency to public spending is gaining real momentum

7/14/9
The Detroit News

In a short time, transparency in public spending has become the expectation rather than the exception. And now that the U.S. House and Senate are just a step away from passing a transparency law that would place office budgets -- including travel costs and staffer names and salaries -- online for all to see, we have one question for any unit of government that prefers to keep its spending in the dark: What's there to hide?

Elected leaders, whether statewide or nationally, have been bold in making their expenditures public.

While the Congress is expected to pass its transparency law by the end of the summer, the Michigan Legislature already posts its office spending online, as do Attorney General Mike Cox and Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land, who got the transparency movement rolling in Michigan.

Even Gov. Jennifer Granholm has adopted limited transparency.

But if transparency is going to filter down to the local level, it'll be because vigilant taxpayers and voters demand to know that their money is being put to good use.
Public money, let's remember, is taxpayer money.

And with Michigan's unemployment rate approaching 15 percent, we simply can't afford the wasteful spending that is allowed to flourish when there's no oversight.

President Barack Obama has made the wages of the White House staff available online. Surely a city like Detroit -- not to mention its school system -- could do the same.
Good evening Anna

I appreciate your opinion of FOIA, as you can imagine while I was doing my non-profit work on the Book Cadillac hotel, the city of Detroit was less than forthcoming with my group's requests. This was back in the years when Kwame Kilpatrick said on WJLB that if he could drive a bulldozer through the lobby himself he would. That the BC and the Hotel Statler were 'dinosaur buildings' that needed to be demolished.

It would help to create a transparent government if the salary information were posted on line HOWEVER, neither you or LPS reformer have stated where the information would stop. You don't indicate if you would want not only the salaries of people but if you want their job tiles and their specific salaries OR if you just want to know what the salary or salary range of the current filed positions are.

The problem is that personal privacy exists on a razor's edge in the information age and you run the risk of violating personal privacy laws but making say a person's name, position, title and exact salary available to anyone, online, with out any kind of check, balance, or safety measures. An identity thief could go on line, get say "Joe", the city hall janitor's full name, job tile and currently salary then take out a credit card in his name, run up a bill, leave "Joe" stuck with it and his credit is then ruined. All because the information was made available on line instead of in a FOIA requests.

However, I know there can be a solution that offers government transparency and still keeps personal privacy intact. Perhaps listing all job titles or job positions that are currently filled and what they current salaries are, but without the names of individuals attached. That way the people maintain the privacy but the information you are looking for is available.

The fact of the matter is that, in the identify theft era, you are starting to tread into dangerous waters. So this issue should be discussed but please bear in mind all the ramifications.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Would you have a problem with this format?

LPS 6/09 Salaries w/ Job Titles
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Lucas McGrail
Member
[ *  * ]
LPS Reformer
Jul 17 2009, 09:34 PM
Would you have a problem with this format?

LPS 6/09 Salaries w/ Job Titles
Hi LPS reformer

I trust you are addressing me specifically, and not necessarily the whole forum. I have reviewed the document you provided and I find myself torn. I agree with the salary information and the job title but the listing of the first, middle and last name of the employee does give me real pause for concern... again due to the privacy and identity theft issue. I do, however, agree that this information should be available for all departments up to and including the leadership and administration but again, with the person's complete name, the possibility of fraud is a reality. At least with a FOIA request, there is a record of who has been given the information and if, for argument sake, you took out a fraudulent credit card in the name of someone on the list, then there would be a record of everyone who requested that information. If its on line, without any safety measures, then it becomes dangerous.

but, some similar format to what your link showed, would be acceptable to me. We just need to remember that in the quest for transparency, we can't trample people under foot.
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Mrs.M
Veteran
Mrs.M
Jul 7 2009, 08:31 PM
Anna Krome
Jul 7 2009, 06:23 PM
Two comments on city council candidate Lucas McGrail:


2. In regard to the annexation vote, McGrail says that he and his wife made sure that they were in town for the annexation vote, and that they did, indeed, vote against the annexation, as I quoted in my above post on the topic. I am told that the city clerk is incorrect in regard to this particular voting record.

I would then highly suggest that McGrail and all other current and potential candidates pull at least their own voters record/history and investigate any discrepancies they may notice. I know from the past an candidates voting record is public information and can be a blessing or a curse.

Hopefully McGrail will be able to get this minor issue taken care of as the clerk's office does maintain the ledgers from the various precincts and it would be easy enough to verify an error.
Mr. McGrail,
Were you able to get your voting record (history) straightened out? What I had seen showed you had voted a total of 10 times since 2000, the November General Elections except for the year 2003, the *August 8, 2006 and the February January 2008 presidential primary.

*Recall included on this election ballot (It's already been three years!)
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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Purple Haze
Veteran
Mrs.M
Jul 18 2009, 08:09 AM
Mrs.M
Jul 7 2009, 08:31 PM
Anna Krome
Jul 7 2009, 06:23 PM
Two comments on city council candidate Lucas McGrail:


2. In regard to the annexation vote, McGrail says that he and his wife made sure that they were in town for the annexation vote, and that they did, indeed, vote against the annexation, as I quoted in my above post on the topic. I am told that the city clerk is incorrect in regard to this particular voting record.

I would then highly suggest that McGrail and all other current and potential candidates pull at least their own voters record/history and investigate any discrepancies they may notice. I know from the past an candidates voting record is public information and can be a blessing or a curse.

Hopefully McGrail will be able to get this minor issue taken care of as the clerk's office does maintain the ledgers from the various precincts and it would be easy enough to verify an error.
Mr. McGrail,
Were you able to get your voting record (history) straightened out? What I had seen showed you had voted a total of 10 times since 2000, the November General Elections except for the year 2003, the *August 8, 2006 and the February January 2008 presidential primary.

*Recall included on this election ballot (It's already been three years!)
Mrs. M., we still have our signs, just in case they're needed again...
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Mrs.M
Veteran
Purple Haze
Jul 18 2009, 11:05 AM
Mrs.M
Jul 18 2009, 08:09 AM
Mrs.M
Jul 7 2009, 08:31 PM
I would then highly suggest that McGrail and all other current and potential candidates pull at least their own voters record/history and investigate any discrepancies they may notice. I know from the past a candidate's voting record is public information and can be a blessing or a curse.

Hopefully McGrail will be able to get this minor issue taken care of as the clerk's office does maintain the ledgers from the various precincts and it would be easy enough to verify an error.

Mr. McGrail,
Were you able to get your voting record (history) straightened out? What I had seen showed you had voted a total of 10 times since 2000, the November General Elections except for the year 2003, the *August 8, 2006 and the February January 2008 presidential primary.

*Recall included on this election ballot (It's already been three years!)
Mrs. M., we still have our signs, just in case they're needed again...
3 years! I see the reminder everytime I drive past a few shuttered schools.
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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uh-oh
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Lucas McGrail
Jul 17 2009, 08:58 PM
uh-oh
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
So, are you on the right or the left? Critical to me!
Good evening UhOh

Thanks for your question. First let me ask why it matters? Shouldn't a voters support be based on experience, knowledge and what they are capable of doing for the community in which they would like to serve? To me, its not about being on the left or right, its about doing right. Government is meant to be an instrument of good, a place where people can come together. That is what may campaign is about. To put an end to our fracturing of government. I think Spencer Tracy said it best when he said "If we don't all pull together, we'll all pull apart."

If being left or right still matters to you, then I am uncertain how to answer. Can you tell me what your definition of what someone on the left or right is?

So, since I don't like to label myself, I must ask again, please tell me how you define those two labels, then perhaps I can give you a more specific answer. But the one thing I wish to reinforce that its not about left or right, its about doing right. I would like the opportunity to do right for the community.
I think your comments (and position on this) are sweet, but a bit naive. Government is fundamentally supposed to support its people. Clearly, that is not really the case anymore. Most decisions(elections, bills, whatever) are tied to lobbyists, money, and who has the most influence at that time. It's a game really.
I agree, at this local level, conservative or liberal politics are less of an issue. Still, whether one supports big government, fiscal conservatism, unionization, etc. does affect their decision making process eventually.
I think you already know what defines a conservative or a liberal, so I won't bore everyone(and myself) by delineating it. I understand if you don't want to answer--it's all part of the game (as I mentioned above).
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Micki
I love teaching.
Lucas McGrail
Jul 17 2009, 08:58 PM
uh-oh
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
So, are you on the right or the left? Critical to me!
Good evening UhOh

Thanks for your question. First let me ask why it matters? Shouldn't a voters support be based on experience, knowledge and what they are capable of doing for the community in which they would like to serve? To me, its not about being on the left or right, its about doing right. Government is meant to be an instrument of good, a place where people can come together. That is what may campaign is about. To put an end to our fracturing of government. I think Spencer Tracy said it best when he said "If we don't all pull together, we'll all pull apart."

If being left or right still matters to you, then I am uncertain how to answer. Can you tell me what your definition of what someone on the left or right is?

So, since I don't like to label myself, I must ask again, please tell me how you define those two labels, then perhaps I can give you a more specific answer. But the one thing I wish to reinforce that its not about left or right, its about doing right. I would like the opportunity to do right for the community.
It matters because of the implications that go along with it. What you support and what your belief system is determines the way that you make decisions. So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. :)
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Monkfish
Advanced Member
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"So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. "

What if you're a Conservative Democrat? Or a Liberal Republican?
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Micki
I love teaching.
Monkfish
Jul 23 2009, 10:20 AM
"So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. "

What if you're a Conservative Democrat? Or a Liberal Republican?
That would be a little more confusing!!!! LOLOLOL

I would suspect that a conservative democrat would be prolife and a liberal republican would be pro choice but not sure.

Great comeback!
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uh-oh
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Monkfish
Jul 23 2009, 10:20 AM
"So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. "

What if you're a Conservative Democrat? Or a Liberal Republican?
Then I would call you a moderate ;) . Still that would be a bit of a cop-out for a politician, don't you think??
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Otis B.
Veteran
I know plenty of "fiscal" conservatives that take the liberal position on social issues (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc.)

On the flip side, there are plenty of Democrats who take the conservative stance on social issues. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what "Reagan Democrats" were? Blue collar union democrats who felt the party abandoned them on social issues.

I look forward to hearing Mr. McGrail give more detail regarding his political philosophy.
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fhsalumni
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uh-oh
Jul 23 2009, 02:25 PM
Monkfish
Jul 23 2009, 10:20 AM
"So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. "

What if you're a Conservative Democrat? Or a Liberal Republican?
Then I would call you a moderate ;) . Still that would be a bit of a cop-out for a politician, don't you think??
Isn't ranking what is most important to you (ex. education, abortion, etc) and finding the candidate that most closely fits your needs, what matters most? That is how I approach how I vote for any candidate. I won't lie, I do look at which party they belong to, but, in the long run, I have priorities that my candidate must support or they won't have my vote. Just my 2 cents.
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Vanna White
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fhsalumni
Jul 23 2009, 02:54 PM
uh-oh
Jul 23 2009, 02:25 PM
Monkfish
Jul 23 2009, 10:20 AM
"So, being republican or democrat or conservative or liberal tells us a lot about you and what you would support. Your belief system will guide you. Can't fool me. "

What if you're a Conservative Democrat? Or a Liberal Republican?
Then I would call you a moderate ;) . Still that would be a bit of a cop-out for a politician, don't you think??
Isn't ranking what is most important to you (ex. education, abortion, etc) and finding the candidate that most closely fits your needs, what matters most? That is how I approach how I vote for any candidate. I won't lie, I do look at which party they belong to, but, in the long run, I have priorities that my candidate must support or they won't have my vote. Just my 2 cents.
That makes some sense, but it also makes sense to take into consideration what types of issue a politician in a particular office really has the ability to influence. City Council has not real impact on education or abortion, for example.
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Micki
I love teaching.
Yet, if they are using it as a stepping stone then it could help to further their career and I don't want to do that in any way shape or form.
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Otis B.
Veteran
Vanna White
Jul 23 2009, 07:21 PM
That makes some sense, but it also makes sense to take into consideration what types of issue a politician in a particular office really has the ability to influence. City Council has not real impact on education or abortion, for example.

"Government is here to serve the people" sounds nice, but really says nothing.
No, but City Council has plenty of influence on how local government impacts people's lives, and a City Council candidate's political philosophy on the role of government would reveal a lot on how they plan to approach the position.
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uh-oh
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Otis B.
Jul 24 2009, 11:20 AM
Vanna White
Jul 23 2009, 07:21 PM
That makes some sense, but it also makes sense to take into consideration what types of issue a politician in a particular office really has the ability to influence. City Council has not real impact on education or abortion, for example.

"Government is here to serve the people" sounds nice, but really says nothing.
No, but City Council has plenty of influence on how local government impacts people's lives, and a City Council candidate's political philosophy on the role of government would reveal a lot on how they plan to approach the position.
Exactly my point Otis. Further, in this climate, I am less intested in the social issues like abortion and CP, and more interested in their economic leanings and their general position on the role of government.
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Micki
I love teaching.
What is CP?
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