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| Drugs at Hull?; Property in very bad shape. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 22 2009, 05:57 PM (3,812 Views) | |
| Deleted User | Jul 17 2009, 04:09 PM Post #41 |
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It sounds like Old Rosedale was a nice building, with lots of history worth keeping. There is nothing special about Hull, other than the great memories many people have of going to school there. Its pretty much the same cookie cutter design of many schools at the time. It's location hurts it, because we all know it's all about show around here. Build a nice new school where everyone can see it, kind of like the new court house. |
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| Lucas McGrail | Jul 17 2009, 08:24 PM Post #42 |
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Good evening everyone When ORGHA filed its FOIA request about the demolition, no one in the neighborhood group could make heads or tails of it. So they asked me to review it and explain what the report meant. Just as an FYI, part of the information included copies of each daily report that was filed. According to the daily logs of the demolition contractor no salvage operations were conducted, of any materials, except for ferrous and non-ferrous metals which were taken to Haggerty Metals as scrap. There was no indication in the logs that any other materials was salvaged. According to my neighbors who lived across the street, no materials were recovered from the exterior, such as the sandstone facade stones or details, or from the interior. If the LPS requested material to be salvaged, 95% of the time an owner is required by the terms of standard contracts to identify, secure and salvaged material on the own or pay a premium to the demolition contractor. Since the logs do not indicate the presence of any one classified as the “owner's rep” or “owner's contractor”, my experience tells me that the only material that was salvaged was by the demolition workers themselves or by a LPS salvage team after working hours, which again, standard contracts don't allow that kind of activity to occur when the contractor isn't on site. Old Rosedale Elementary was built with the majority of old Rosedale in 1925. Based on the information at the library, the information from current residents in ORG who once attended school there as well as the Shelden Brothers reputation for public use buildings, I can tell you that hallways were terrazzo, the head office, principle's office and kindergarten had pewabic tiles, all the doors to the class rooms were made of oak as well as the mantels that were over the fireplaces in the kindergarten class room and the principles office. Some of the high profile doors had leaded glass (not colored glass) in them, and the built in bookshelves that were in some of the class rooms were oak as well. When I suggested that the building could have been converted in to residential, let me explain what I meant. Based on the adaptive reuse projects I have done in Detroit, Old Rosedale Elementary could have been gutted for its lockers and demising walls in the hallways. Then new party walls could have been added or existing ones reused between class rooms to create new, two story living spaces, similar to attached row houses that were common in the 30's and 40's. Then, on the first floor, existing windows could have become entry ways with new stairs to create new front doors. Based on the size and shape, indicated in the demolition reports I reviewed, the property could have become 15 to 20 attached, two story with basement, row houses in the structure. The square footage could have varied between 1300 to possibly 1600, with 1500 being average. A building in that condition, with the city paying for abatement, would have cost any one of the developers I worked with about 2 million to convert. Then with the need for housing Livonia had in 2000 / 01, plus with no other loft style space in Livonia, these new, loft style condos in a vintage and historic structure at a minimum could have sold for 250 to 300 K. Which means at a minimum someone could have made 3.75 million dollars or at the maximum could have made 6.0 million. But according to the debates in city council told to me by the neighbors and the information they got from their FOIA request, no one, from the mayor down to the LPS board, made any suggestions of this kind of plan. No alternative uses were discussed at all. This is what I would like to bring to the city council. The ability to use abstract and creative thinking to solve problems like what to do with a property like Hull. |
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| Lucas McGrail | Jul 17 2009, 08:44 PM Post #43 |
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Good evening Jimid In response to your point about competition, I agree that LPS "wouldn't like the competition", but I believe that shows the chink in their proverbial armor. If they believe that the LPS system is so great and beyond reproach, then they wouldn't care about a private group like the Quakers for instance, leasing or even selling the property to a private school. Because if they believe that the LPS system is so good, they would believe that no one will send their kids there and it would fail. The only reason that the LPS would fear this idea, is if they knew that the LPS system had problems big enough that would cause residents to send their kids somewhere else. That's why I suggest this, its a win win. If they say YES to the idea, then a vacant building can be reused, the city has positive cash flow from this building and it forces LPS to stay on top of its game. If they say NO, then they have to explain why they are saying no and why they are so fearful of the idea. Either way, they are put in a position where they have to be straight shooters, which everyone wants, or they have to lie, which just makes them look worse. Thank you for clarifying when Hull opened. If it was built in 1961, then typically 2001 would be the typical end of its life cycle in relationship to depreciation of value and age of materials and equipment. However, since it was added on to and or renovated say in the 80's or later, then the life cycle clock is reset and the rule of thumb is that you give it, given how much square footage was added, anywhere between 20 to 40 additional years from its date of renovation or expansion. If it were added on to in say 1985, then it has at least another 10 to 16 years of life left before it should be demolished or renovated again. If it were to be used for one of my ideas related to the LPD, then it could get another 30 years of life out of it, it could become a revenue generator, and would help to make our police department one of the best sub-urban departments in the region. If you'd like to know more about my plan, I'll discuss it but off forum. I am glad you prefer to speak openly, that is one of my personality traits that my co-workers and now potential voters seem to like the most about me. As for the nature preserve that you mentioned, if the building had to be demolished, I would rather it be restored to its pre-development state and added to the nature preserve, perhaps keeping a portion of the building as a nature and community center, another one of my ideas for reuse. My hope is that these suggestions and ideas do two things: 1. sparks dialog among citizens that we should demand more of our leaders in regards to our city assets, and 2. that it shows my penchant for creative problem solving and abstract thought. Thanks again for your comments. I very much enjoy this dialog. |
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| Deleted User | Jul 17 2009, 11:23 PM Post #44 |
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You are welcome Lucas! I enjoy it also. The Madonna Nature Preserve, and the city owned land (between Yale and Ellen Dr.) are wonderful assets. But they are seperate from the Hull property, and not connected.They are wooded, and not very open. We need a little open space, with a baseball diamond, play structure....the usual things most Livonia neighborhoods have. A place kids can ride their bikes to and feel safe, even fly a kite .Hull has the only property in our neighborhood that this is possible. I doesn't matter where you live. Detroit, Livonia, Birmingham. A vacant building is a magnet for trouble. What seperates communities is how they deal with these properties. If anyone would like to see how Livonia is dealing with it, and which community we are modeling ourselves after, drive by Hull and decide for yourself. Map to Hull |
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| Deleted User | Jul 23 2009, 11:26 AM Post #45 |
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Play sets removed at Hull for safety Engineers say take down Beverly Park playscape By Ken Abramczyk • OBSERVER STAFF WRITER • July 23, 2009 Livonia Public Schools and the city of Livonia are taking steps to protect children from playground equipment they consider dangerous. The school district this week removed a play structure and two sets of climbing bars from Hull Elementary School on Lyndon at Fairlane because they were deemed unsafe by the district's maintenance department, Donna McDowell, the district's administrator of communications, confirmed Tuesday. “We don't want anyone on that (equipment),” she said. “It needed to be removed.” She said the playscape and swing sets will remain, but the removed equipment won't be replaced. The school is no longer being used to educate students, but the district is committed to maintaining the playground for the community, she said. “Our goal is to work with the residents to maintain the property and make it desirable,” she said,adding that fencing will be added to improve safety and maintenance. Meanwhile, an engineering firm has recommended the removal of the community-built play structure in Beverly Park south of Seven Mile and east of Merriman due to arsenic contamination. In a report released to the City Council Wednesday, Soil and Materials Engineers of Plymouth recommended removing the structure, then excavating and removing about 2 1/2 feet of underlying soil and sand to eliminate exposure to the existing arsenic-treated wood. Earlier this year, Testing Engineers & Consultants indicated that the levels of arsenic in the structure and soil nearby exceed standards for safe direct contact. The City Council will decide whether to remove and replace the structure. The structure was built in 1993 by community volunteers, who also raised money for it. It was donated to the city in 1994, and the city took over maintenance in 2001. The city closed the structure and installed fencing around it in April after an unsafe level of arsenic was detected in the soil and in test borings of the wooden playscape. Arsenic was used as a preservative in pressure-treated wood and can be highly toxic. “It is unfortunate that this community-built playscape may need to be removed to protect the health and safety of our citizens,” said Mayor Jack E. Kirksey in a prepared statement. “It is important to safeguard the health and safety of our citizens and, based on the expert opinion of our environmental consultant, the structure's removal provides the best guarantee of achieving that objective.” Advertisement SME took additional subsurface samples to confirm TEC's test results, conducting hand-auger borings and soil samples, at various levels up to four feet deep. SME also looked at an option of applying a sealer to the play structure's surface and removing or covering wood chips and soil beneath the structure. While sealer could reduce arsenic migrating from the wood, exposure to arsenic is not eliminated from treated wood. ”Furthermore, excavating or covering impacted soil in the presence of a structure would be more difficult and a regular cover maintenance and inspection program would also be required if impacted soil was to be covered,” the report states. Instead SME decided on the other option, the removal of the structure along with the wood chips and soil. If the City Council approves removing the structure and soil, the Parks and Recreation Department will seek bids for the work. The city plans to use a citizens committee and the Parks and Recreation Commission to help design a replacement structure for the park. Staff writer Karen Smith contributed to this report. http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20090723/NEWS10/907230517/1027/news10/Play+sets+removed+at+Hull+for+safety |
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| Lucas McGrail | Jul 24 2009, 02:32 PM Post #46 |
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Hello everyone Here is an example of the city council misusing funds. They found out that there was an arsenic contamination problem. Then spent at least 25000 dollars or more on an evironmental report from SME, who I have done work with in the past, only to tell them that the playscape should be removed and the soil abated to a depth of 30 inches. Now they'll have to pay someone to remove the soil and the playscape and have it disposed of in a type II landfill... all of which will have additional costs. If I were on the council, I could have saved them the money and the two months they spent waiting for this recommendation by using my expereince with contaminated sites and recommended that they do, two months ago, what they are just now finding out. This is a perfect example of illogical spending. |
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| crazy_cat | Jul 24 2009, 02:47 PM Post #47 |
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I believe the issue was the residents who built it did not agree it needed to be removed -- maybe they needed the study to prove it to them?? |
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| Lucas McGrail | Jul 24 2009, 10:11 PM Post #48 |
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Perhaps you are right. I just find it amazing that when it comes to lead, PCB's, mercury or asbestoes, everyone is right on board with getting rid of it immediately, but arsenic rears its head and then suddenly the community that built it thinks it should stay, the city council decides that further investigation is needed and everyone needs a report to PROVE that its hazardous. What I find sad is that the money they spent on the environmental report could have paid for a brand new and very complex playscape made with pre and post consumer recycled materials that aren't toxic. Frankly, it never ceases to amaze me when someone needs an 'official document' to tell them something that everyone is already telling them. |
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| Ms. AK | Aug 12 2009, 05:41 PM Post #49 |
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I recently heard back from LPS on the Old Rosedale School's supposedly salvageable Pewabic tile, leaded glass, vintage oak doors, mantels, molding, plasterwork and sandstone. My question to LPS was: "Was [the above-mentioned 'artifacts'"] sold to the demolition company or was some other arrangement made for these items? Or, did the items go to the landfill for some reason? If in a landfill, can you provide the reason why?" LPS' response: "... the elements of the school that you mentioned were put in the landfill, because of the presence of lead-based paint and lead-based chemicals on the materials." Thank you, LPS, for answering my question. Edited by Ms. AK, Aug 12 2009, 05:42 PM.
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| Momof4 | Aug 12 2009, 08:56 PM Post #50 |
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That makes me sick. I think that people would have been able to restore those things. |
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| Ms. AK | Aug 12 2009, 10:48 PM Post #51 |
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I found it an odd response, also. For example, leaded glass windows have lead, but they are not dangerous unless you eat them. |
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Krome on Cars | |
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| Momof4 | Aug 13 2009, 12:00 PM Post #52 |
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There are people who would pay a lot of money for leaded glass windows and probably a lot of stuff that LPS dumped. Oak doors, mantels, molding, come on. That is nice stuff. To think that some of the valuable stuff didn't find it's way out, is naive. Someone benefited, which frankly, I'd rather see than dumping things into the ground. Can't lead based paint be safely stripped, leaving beautiful wood doors? |
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| SJF | Aug 13 2009, 12:13 PM Post #53 |
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A number of our neighbors have met with Dr. Liepa twice this summer about the Hull property and drug activity...He has repaired lighting and put up a fence on the cemetery side of the building...If you see any drug activity, please try and get make, model, plate # and time of day to Officer Mike Killingbeck, mkillingbeck@lpdmail.com (he says he reads his email every morning) or 734-466-2324. Please pass the word that the Hulll site is being considered for demolition soon...Dr. Liepa is asking for neighborhood input...He is going to make a recommendation to the school board Sept. 1st 2009. He is talking about removing the building and making it a "green space"...We had hoped for a new updated park, but that doesn't seem to be in the plan...Dr. Liepa said they would leave the remaining playground equipment and plant some grass seed...Some equipment was removed a few weeks ago, because the schools said it did not meet today's safety standards... Please spread the word...Time is short...What do you think?...Contact Dr. Randy Liepa through the Livonia Public Schools website or by phone 734-744-2510/ the Livonia School Board members. Next school board meeting Aug. 17th. |
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| Deleted User | Aug 13 2009, 02:45 PM Post #54 |
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I think tearing the building down may be the best option, unless someone has a better use immediately. My concern would be keeping that property for future LPS use, and getting some kind of guarantee that it will NOT be sold for some shady back room development. It is the only large, open space we have in this neighborhood. I would never want to see anything but a school there. Save the land for a better day, 10 or 30 years down the road when we need to build a new school. It will take a lot of vigilance to keep the greedy developers paws off that land though. |
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| Ms. AK | Aug 13 2009, 08:41 PM Post #55 |
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How much does it cost to tear the building down? Would the neighborhood association be willing to buy the land from LPS? I'd contribute to the Hull Neighborhood to take control of their own green space. |
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| Extra Olives | Aug 14 2009, 11:01 AM Post #56 |
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Demolition is a really dumb idea IMO. When we are forced to go to full day kindergarten, we will probably need to move kids around to make room in the other buildings. Hull may be needed for overflow. Tearing it down at this point is waaaaay premature. |
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| Extra Olives | Aug 14 2009, 12:09 PM Post #57 |
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Or what about using it for a magnet school or the K-8 school they told us they would consider. There are many ways LPS could put Hull to good use. They are choosing not to. Hull is the most centrally located building in the district. It would be very shortsighted of them to tear it down.
Edited by Extra Olives, Aug 14 2009, 12:10 PM.
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| Ms. AK | Aug 14 2009, 07:19 PM Post #58 |
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Here's an idea--instead of enriching demolition contractors--why not seek out a way to sell the property to a good charter school? Is LPS afraid? What do Hull Neighbors want? I don't know. Edited by Ms. AK, Aug 14 2009, 07:37 PM.
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| Ms. AK | Aug 14 2009, 07:48 PM Post #59 |
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I have to agree, Olives. Edited by Ms. AK, Aug 14 2009, 07:49 PM.
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| Mrs.M | Aug 14 2009, 08:06 PM Post #60 |
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There is no way LPS would risk losing more students than they already have planned on losing. LPS will probably be losing a few youngsters to the expansion of the Montessori Center on the Felician grounds. The sisters have had a waiting list for a couple years. |
| I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG. | |
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