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Drugs at Hull?; Property in very bad shape.
Topic Started: May 22 2009, 05:57 PM (3,813 Views)
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jimid wrote:

No one would like this in their neighborhood. I remember when Rosedale was closed, we didn't have these problems. It's a shame anyone has to deal with this in Livonia. So, what kind of paintings do you think would be appropriate? Maybe a whale?
6/30/2009 11:45:24 PM
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Sure she can, if Hull isn't in her back yard. Sigh...........
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Whatever
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Wow! Maybe they should hire the same people that "paint" under the overpasses on the freeway. What a ridiculous comment!

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This "mural" is located in Detroit.
Edited by Whatever, Jul 1 2009, 10:56 AM.
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Ms. AK
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That poster really needs to get her facts straight. She's always blasting others for their "opinion" when she's seriously, seriously partial, herself. Her logic is so off-balance, it's no wonder she always sides with the BOE and central.

I dare her to post her. I'm betting she's terrified of some actual debate.
Krome on Cars

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Sourapples
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She's one of the BOE groupies....."helping to find a solution for a problem, rather than just pointing out a problem." Some would like to see the Hull property maintained.....she sees an art project. It's just a different way to approach the situation. :blink:
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Well, maybe they could reduce damage to windows with art work. If they put Liepa's face on each boarded up window.

Hell, they could probably sell tickets.
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Lucas McGrail
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Good evening everyone.
I have been following this discussion with a certain amount of disbelief and shock. Shock in that the school board has shuttered a building of this size and age with no idea of what's its disposition should be. As an architect and planner, I can think of at least 5 different uses for that property that would have little or no finacial impact to the city's budget and keep the property utilized by different city agencies. I can also think of another 5 different uses for the building which would have modest to moderate costs to the city which would result in the building developing a positive cash flow verses a negative or non existant cash flow as it is right now. The fact that it is not only has been shuttered but basically abandoned by the BOE is absolutely disgraceful. The building is about 20 years old or so, it is a valuable asset, cost probably 15 million dollars to build and the BOE is letting it be demolished by neglect, just like what happens in Dearborn, Detroit and in some areas of Wayne, Redford and Westland. The fact that the school board is letting a property, a viable property, sit derilict, should not only infuriate the citizens but should make you tremble with indignation.

Now, on the topic of the continuing vadlization, respectfully, I have to say that the damage is being generated by people who are local. There is no way that someone from Dearborn, Canton, Plymouth or even Detroit just happens to be out driving around, and just happens to find there way to Hull and then just happens to start hanging out and decides to paint or break windows. the only people that would know not only where the property is and that its shuttered are people who are local. The reason that Old Rosedale didn't have similar problems is because of two main reasons: highly visible all day and night; a strong prescence of community watch. I must respectfully submit that perhaps the reason Hull is having the people with vandals and the supposed drug dealing that has been referenced here is because it is not a highly visible location and that more community watching is required OR the demand should be made of LPD to step up patrols AND that the BOE get Parks and Rec's over to the site to manage the landscaping, and keep the site clean. If elected to the City Council the first thing I would do is meet with LPD about added patrols, then tell the school board to transfer funds from their operating budget to the DPW's operating budget to pay for gromming the landscape, clean up the parking lot, board up ALL the windows, added additional temporary lighting for security and finally, install water filled or concrete median barracades to prevent any one who is in a car from being up to no good around the building. If anyone wanted to vandalize, that would force them to be on foot or on bikes. I would also have the DPW provide paint and related materials to realize the idea suggested by LPS Reformer which is to paint the window board ups with murals. When I was working on the Detroit Institute of Art project our site fence was being vandalized all the time, but as soon as we allowed the different grammer schools to paint murals on our wooden fencing the vandalism stopped.

My final thought is that this property has many different possible uses, which if people are interested, I'd be happy to share them off forum. But unless the BOE starts acting like responsible stewarts of its own properties, then what good are they really. The loss of Old Rosedale was a tremendous failure of the board, especially considering the adpative reuse potential it had as a historic building. Now its happening again and this time to a practically brand new building like Hull. As a member of city council, I will use my experience and background to protect and secure city assets, not let them rot and wither away. Thank you for your time and attention.
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Lucas McGrail
Jul 15 2009, 11:41 PM
Good evening everyone.
I have been following this discussion with a certain amount of disbelief and shock. Shock in that the school board has shuttered a building of this size and age with no idea of what's its disposition should be. As an architect and planner, I can think of at least 5 different uses for that property that would have little or no finacial impact to the city's budget and keep the property utilized by different city agencies. I can also think of another 5 different uses for the building which would have modest to moderate costs to the city which would result in the building developing a positive cash flow verses a negative or non existant cash flow as it is right now. The fact that it is not only has been shuttered but basically abandoned by the BOE is absolutely disgraceful. The building is about 20 years old or so, it is a valuable asset, cost probably 15 million dollars to build and the BOE is letting it be demolished by neglect, just like what happens in Dearborn, Detroit and in some areas of Wayne, Redford and Westland. The fact that the school board is letting a property, a viable property, sit derilict, should not only infuriate the citizens but should make you tremble with indignation.

Now, on the topic of the continuing vadlization, respectfully, I have to say that the damage is being generated by people who are local. There is no way that someone from Dearborn, Canton, Plymouth or even Detroit just happens to be out driving around, and just happens to find there way to Hull and then just happens to start hanging out and decides to paint or break windows. the only people that would know not only where the property is and that its shuttered are people who are local. The reason that Old Rosedale didn't have similar problems is because of two main reasons: highly visible all day and night; a strong prescence of community watch. I must respectfully submit that perhaps the reason Hull is having the people with vandals and the supposed drug dealing that has been referenced here is because it is not a highly visible location and that more community watching is required OR the demand should be made of LPD to step up patrols AND that the BOE get Parks and Rec's over to the site to manage the landscaping, and keep the site clean. If elected to the City Council the first thing I would do is meet with LPD about added patrols, then tell the school board to transfer funds from their operating budget to the DPW's operating budget to pay for gromming the landscape, clean up the parking lot, board up ALL the windows, added additional temporary lighting for security and finally, install water filled or concrete median barracades to prevent any one who is in a car from being up to no good around the building. If anyone wanted to vandalize, that would force them to be on foot or on bikes. I would also have the DPW provide paint and related materials to realize the idea suggested by LPS Reformer which is to paint the window board ups with murals. When I was working on the Detroit Institute of Art project our site fence was being vandalized all the time, but as soon as we allowed the different grammer schools to paint murals on our wooden fencing the vandalism stopped.

My final thought is that this property has many different possible uses, which if people are interested, I'd be happy to share them off forum. But unless the BOE starts acting like responsible stewarts of its own properties, then what good are they really. The loss of Old Rosedale was a tremendous failure of the board, especially considering the adpative reuse potential it had as a historic building. Now its happening again and this time to a practically brand new building like Hull. As a member of city council, I will use my experience and background to protect and secure city assets, not let them rot and wither away. Thank you for your time and attention.
Talks like a politician looking for votes.
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Lucas McGrail
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Good afternoon everyone
In response to 'one_observer' statement that I "talk like a politician looking for votes", I respectfully disagree. I talk like an architect who is disgusted with the condition of viable property and city asset that is being condemned to rot because those who are charged with its care and maintenance either don't know how to care for a property or simply don't care. After rereading my posting, I don't see where I asked for votes. I said 'if I were elected' what I would insist be done with the property. As a citizen and an architect, I'm outraged by the irresponsible behavior when it comes to city assets like useful, city owned property that is being wasted due to ignorance and indifference. Please allow me to put it to the discussion group... shouldn't citizens be outraged when a city is being wasteful of city resources? Shouldn't citizens come together and discuss how this wasteful behavior impacts the city and its future? If a citizen works hard and pays their taxes, then they should be concerned and watchful of how those taxes are spent. I encourage those who may doubt my sincerity to simply email me at electmcgrail@yahoo.com so that we may discuss my perspectives. I welcome the chance to have meaningful dialog, especially on an issue like this.
Best Regards.
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Lucas, welcome to the forum!

Hull definitely needs attention, and is not any where near what people expect from a city like Livonia. The problem starts with a complete lack of planning and foresight for this building by LPS.

The tools were in place (no disrespect intended) to push the Legacy Initiative through, with little regard for our neighborhoods. We should have taken more time, especially with this building, to have a plan in place for it. It is off the beaten path, and nothing short of 24 hour surveillance by community members would stop what has taken place. Don’t think for one minute that folks have not tried, but is it really our responsibility? If it were my home, the city wouldn’t let this go for one week, let alone 4 years.

I hoped LPS could come up with a use for the school, and have never heard of using it for city purposes. The building is much closer to 40 years old than 20. Transferring money to DPW for maintenance from the LPS operating budget will bring screams of "your taking the money from the kids". Because the money surely wont come from deep cuts up top at LPS.

I was born and raised in Detroit, Lucas, and have as much passion as you do to see that city come back. But I have learned one thing since living in Livonia. It is the polar opposite of Detroit. Murals and barricades are the last thing people want.

At this point, I would rather see the building torn down, and the land saved for a new school in the future. But, I have no confidence the current city and LPS leadership wouldn’t soon work a deal to swap the land for some kind of development. There isn’t much land left in Livonia, and this is a perfect spot for really only one thing. A school. Whether it is 5, 10 or 30 years down the road.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Hull's problem is best seen from above.

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The trees simply make it very difficult for the community to watch it. The homes are also farther from the school than most neighborhoods.
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Of course, you could always put up some better targets for all those rocks. Maybe they would be too busy thowing them at these to break any more windows. ;)

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“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Lucas McGrail
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Jimid
Jul 16 2009, 06:37 PM
Lucas, welcome to the forum!

Hull definitely needs attention, and is not any where near what people expect from a city like Livonia. The problem starts with a complete lack of planning and foresight for this building by LPS.

The tools were in place (no disrespect intended) to push the Legacy Initiative through, with little regard for our neighborhoods. We should have taken more time, especially with this building, to have a plan in place for it. It is off the beaten path, and nothing short of 24 hour surveillance by community members would stop what has taken place. Don’t think for one minute that folks have not tried, but is it really our responsibility? If it were my home, the city wouldn’t let this go for one week, let alone 4 years.

I hoped LPS could come up with a use for the school, and have never heard of using it for city purposes. The building is much closer to 40 years old than 20. Transferring money to DPW for maintenance from the LPS operating budget will bring screams of "your taking the money from the kids". Because the money surely wont come from deep cuts up top at LPS.

I was born and raised in Detroit, Lucas, and have as much passion as you do to see that city come back. But I have learned one thing since living in Livonia. It is the polar opposite of Detroit. Murals and barricades are the last thing people want.

At this point, I would rather see the building torn down, and the land saved for a new school in the future. But, I have no confidence the current city and LPS leadership wouldn’t soon work a deal to swap the land for some kind of development. There isn’t much land left in Livonia, and this is a perfect spot for really only one thing. A school. Whether it is 5, 10 or 30 years down the road.
Good evening Jimid
I appreciate your dialog with me regarding the property. The reason I believe it to be 20 to 25 years old is because the brick, window, flashing and accent lighting is much newer than 40 years old which of course would put the school having been built in 1969, perhaps the school was expanded or renovated in the last 20 years? If so, then its expected life cycle 'clock' would have been reset. It still has at least 20 to 25 more years left in its life cycle before it would need to be demolished or have another major renovation... if it had one in the recent past as I have suggested.

I myself was born and raised in a little farming town called Pitston Maine and I grew up in Detroit as well. I have seen the rural, urban and sub-urban architectural landscape and although I will agree that murals and barricades would be a tough sell on its face, however, I think what people don't want to see is this property slowly be demolished by neglect or go up in flames from a scrapper who 'accidentally' lets a fire get out of control. If Livonia were to do what Federal buildings do, then traffic impediments could be made to blend in with the background. Federal projects utilize over sized planters (round or rectangular) and plant low maintenance landscaping like native plants and trees which blend into the background landscaping and end up limiting where a vehicle can go on the property. I have see it done on several of my past projects and seen it work very effectively. There are so many ways to limit vehicle traffic in this type of situation you'd be surprised at how unobtrusive it is and how relatively inexpensive. Look at the aerial photo that was posted, imagine placement of these impediments just to the right and left of the vegetative islands in the front parking lot. That would restrict movement to the rear and side of the property by someone in a car.

I can agree that if it comes right down to it, then demolition should be considered however it should not be the first club out of the bag. All other possible reuses should be examined... for instance use by Parks and Rec or the DPW. However, if demolition is the only answer then it should be done properly, not bulldozed but rather dismantled, so that materials, equipment, furniture, and finished could be salvaged and reused by Livonia or surrounding communities. Then the rest should be reused, recycled and then with whats left, sent to a landfill. Using Old Rosedale as an example, if they converted the school into say, loft style condo townhouses, they could have had a developer make 6 million on a 2 million dollar investment. But when they decided to demolish, all the Pewabic tile, leaded glass, vintage oak doors, mantels and molding, plasterwork and sandstone could have been salvaged by Livonia and reused ... just about anywhere for anything thing. Instead the whole building, except for ferrous and non-ferrous metals went to a landfill.

Frankly, I too would like to see the area remain a school. Plenty of lush green spaces, older trees, wide open space, just the kind of place you want kids to learn at. If LPS isn't going to use it, then the idea of selling or lease it to a private group for a school would be preferable to demolition. Perhaps the Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, or even the Quakers might be interested in opening a school on the site. If the Friends schools can open one in Detroit, then why not in Livonia? Would the politics in Livonia allow groups like these to open a private school, hard to say. But what I can tell you is that it is worth having a conversation about.

Thank you the courtesy of a response. I am willing to take our discussion off forum and email you directly if you would care to hear my other thoughts about reuse and strategies for managing its current status.

Have a good evening.
Cheers.
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Leasing the property to a church group would be a great way to go. Although I don't think LPS would like the competition. Our neighborhood would be without any open green space if the property were developed. We have Madonna Nature Preserve (wooded), and city property(wooded). That would not help attract younger families.

Respectfully, I prefer to speak openly.

Lucas, Hull opened in 1961. There were renovations, like the Library and windows, but it is the same building.
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IDK
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Using Old Rosedale as an example, if they converted the school into say, loft style condo townhouses, they could have had a developer make 6 million on a 2 million dollar investment. But when they decided to demolish, all the Pewabic tile, leaded glass, vintage oak doors, mantels and molding, plasterwork and sandstone could have been salvaged by Livonia and reused...


Have you ever been inside a LPS school? They are nice but not that nice, Pewabic tile? leaded glass? vintage oak doors?
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fhsalumni
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IDK
Jul 17 2009, 09:59 AM
Using Old Rosedale as an example, if they converted the school into say, loft style condo townhouses, they could have had a developer make 6 million on a 2 million dollar investment. But when they decided to demolish, all the Pewabic tile, leaded glass, vintage oak doors, mantels and molding, plasterwork and sandstone could have been salvaged by Livonia and reused...


Have you ever been inside a LPS school? They are nice but not that nice, Pewabic tile? leaded glass? vintage oak doors?
I worked for LPS when Old Rosedale was reopened in 1986, it was gorgeous and had all Lucas mentioned and more. That is a rarity for our LPS schools. They could've sold off some of the materials and made some cash.
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Ms. AK
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Because LPS contracts and detailed financials are not online, we don't know if LPS received--either a discount on the demolition in exchange for the artifacts--or if the artifacts are in a warehouse somewhere or in someone's basement...or someone took...?

We need LPS contracts online.

It would end a lot of the guessing.


Krome on Cars

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Whatever
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fhsalmuni
Jul 17 2009, 10:44 AM
IDK
Jul 17 2009, 09:59 AM
Using Old Rosedale as an example, if they converted the school into say, loft style condo townhouses, they could have had a developer make 6 million on a 2 million dollar investment. But when they decided to demolish, all the Pewabic tile, leaded glass, vintage oak doors, mantels and molding, plasterwork and sandstone could have been salvaged by Livonia and reused...


Have you ever been inside a LPS school? They are nice but not that nice, Pewabic tile? leaded glass? vintage oak doors?
I worked for LPS when Old Rosedale was reopened in 1986, it was gorgeous and had all Lucas mentioned and more. That is a rarity for our LPS schools. They could've sold off some of the materials and made some cash.
More than likely they didn't discard any valuable material. Whoever was involved in the demolition probably just took what they wanted for free. Of course, we'll never know what really happened.....
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Ms. AK
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I just wrote to Ms. McDowel at LPS and asked her what happened to the artifacts, if anything. I'll share, if I hear back.
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Ms. AK
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Does anyone have any photos of what it used to look like--inside or out?
Krome on Cars

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