Obama on Math

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Obama on Math; mentions Singapore's scores
Topic Started: Mar 15 2009, 11:41 AM (202 Views)
IlikeLIvonia	Mar 15 2009, 11:41 AM Post #1
Advanced Member Posts: 923 Group: Members Member #44 Joined: May 11, 2007	Obama on Math http://voices.washingtonpost.com/x-equals-why/2009/03/obama_on_math_education.html?hpid=sec-education President Obama outlined his reform agenda yesterday for the nation's public schools in a speech before the US Hispanic Chamber of Commerce. He promoted extending the school day, adopting performance pay for teachers, and encouraging the proliferation of charter schools, to name a few. But what did he say about math, you are wondering. Here it is - the math report. Obama's speech mentioned math education explicitly four times: 1. He reminded the nation that economic development and academic achievement go hand in hand and that the federal government can play a significant role. "Investments in math and science under President Eisenhower gave new opportunities to young scientists and engineers all across the country. It made possible somebody like a Sergei Brin to attend graduate school and found an upstart company called Google that would forever change our world," he said. 2. He pointed out that American 8th graders rank in 9th place on international math tests and that Singapore's middle-schoolers outperform ours three to one. 3. He said that children who graduate from early childhood education programs are more likely to score higher in reading and math, more likely to graduate from high school and attend college, more likely to hold a job, and more likely to earn more in that job. 4. He addressed teacher shortages in math and science and said he supports offering extra pay to teachers in those areas, as well as new ways to recruit teachers into the profession and incentives to stay in teaching, particularly in high-poverty schools.



IlikeLIvonia	May 5 2009, 08:46 AM Post #2
Advanced Member Posts: 923 Group: Members Member #44 Joined: May 11, 2007	"Get rid of "math education experts", the type who've given us Everyday Math and other abominations. One problem that I see with education is that people who've been in education their entire lives completely lose sight of why we educate people to begin with. We educate kids to be successful in life not just to be successful in school. Success in school is not an end in itself. Regarding programs like Everday Math: I've heard lifelong teachers defend this program on the grounds that some kids learn better with it. But they're missing the point, because the techniques taught in these programs do not scale to more complex calculations nor do they apply to algebraic manipulations. Teachers are often so focused on "student success" that the don't see that what the students have supposedly learned isn't even applicable beyond the current school year." Edited by IlikeLIvonia, May 5 2009, 08:46 AM.



Vanna White	May 5 2009, 08:54 AM Post #3
Advanced Member Posts: 809 Group: Members Member #32 Joined: May 10, 2007	IlikeLIvonia May 5 2009, 08:46 AM "Get rid of "math education experts", the type who've given us Everyday Math and other abominations. One problem that I see with education is that people who've been in education their entire lives completely lose sight of why we educate people to begin with. We educate kids to be successful in life not just to be successful in school. Success in school is not an end in itself. Regarding programs like Everday Math: I've heard lifelong teachers defend this program on the grounds that some kids learn better with it. But they're missing the point, because the techniques taught in these programs do not scale to more complex calculations nor do they apply to algebraic manipulations. Teachers are often so focused on "student success" that the don't see that what the students have supposedly learned isn't even applicable beyond the current school year." Focus on the longer term outcomes, looking at high school students about to graduate. Use nationally normed exams as the measure. That is the only way to truely improve in a way that is meaningful.



Anna Krome	May 5 2009, 09:10 AM Post #4
Advanced Member Posts: 884 Group: Members Member #47 Joined: May 11, 2007	I am not an educator, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The oft-quoted Singapore example concerns me for these reasons: Doesn't Singapore have a different student demographic than the US? It seems faulty reasoning to compare the test scores "apples-to-apples," when it is more likely "apples-to-oranges." For example, my understanding is that Singapore does not provide education for ALL students, as the US must. Hence, the student demographic is weighted differently. We have to educate ALL students, with very different innate abilities; whereas, Singapore may pick and choose who they will educate. Singapore selects who will be formally educated, and who will not. This is based on testing of the student to ascertain potential success in their college-bound students. If the average IQ is 100, and it is estimated by intelligence experts that at least a 120 is needed to get through college, it is a stretch to assume that all US students are well suited for college. The great equalitarian quest of public education does not make sense to me. It sounds great, but is it possible in reality? In college, we don't expect all kids to go to the same colleges. Plus, admission is based on testing, such as the ACT and SAT. It's not elitist, it is a fact of nature. Some students are more suited for some jobs, and other students are suited for other jobs. I was an English major, because that is where my strengths lie. But, I sure as heck never made the salaries of engineers or bankers. That's a fact of my life. Also, if Singapore is doing a great job in math and science, perhaps they are educating those children who appear to have a proclivity to those subjects. Singapore is producing math and science prodigies, because they are educating math and science prodigies. Lastly, the US does need serious help in educating math and science students, but to compare countries without full evaluation--seems faulty. If the US started siphoning off math and science prodigies, there would be a HUGE uproar, citing unfairness and elitism. I don't know the answer, but the US' model of assembly-line education seems to be the problem. Edited by Anna Krome, May 5 2009, 09:28 AM.
	Krome on Cars


BoaterDan	May 5 2009, 10:55 AM Post #5
Advanced Member Posts: 534 Group: Members Member #60 Joined: May 15, 2007	Those are some good questions AK, but I think the overall evidence makes that kind of a moot point, unless that's true of all countries around the world that kick our butt in math and science. The most telling data I've seen is the one from a year or two ago that compared not only the results on standardized test, but students' attitudes toward the subject. Turns out US students like math much more than students in countries beating us handily in performance. Clearly, that suggests that liking math is not a key component to success in it, which is 100% contrary to one of the fundamental motivations for implementing new math like EM. When the EM discussion was taking place in this district, one of the main points in its favor we heard was how much students like it. Lessard expressed his gleeful excitement in eliminating the requirement for learning those dreaded times tables and such.



Anna Krome	May 5 2009, 01:23 PM Post #6
Advanced Member Posts: 884 Group: Members Member #47 Joined: May 11, 2007	Good points, BD.
	Krome on Cars


Larry Martin	May 5 2009, 02:39 PM Post #7
Advanced Member Posts: 170 Group: Members Member #246 Joined: October 3, 2007	Anna Krome May 5 2009, 09:10 AM I am not an educator, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The oft-quoted Singapore example concerns me for these reasons: Doesn't Singapore have a different student demographic than the US? It seems faulty reasoning to compare the test scores "apples-to-apples," when it is more likely "apples-to-oranges." ... It is true that Singapore is not an apples to apples with the US. It is a small nation-state, somewhere around the size of New York City. But fuzzy math supporters try to downplay Singapore as an abberation not worthy of learning from, when there are significant lessons to learn. They do educate all children. It is almost 100% English Language Learners. There are 4 (or 5?) native languages that are spoken at home, while all eduction is in English. The 'normal' elementary school math teacher knows more math than a lot of High School teachers in the US. Their national standards are the benchmark for the world. Combine the high expectations of their standards with the high level of knowlege of their teachers and a curriculum that is very focused on content and the results are impressive. Massachusetts adopted similar math standards worked hard on improving teacher knowledge and this year saw the results. As a state, they participated in the same global test, TIMMS, and scored at the top. And they did test students from randomly selected schools. "According to the results of the 2007 Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), Massachusetts 4th graders ranked second worldwide in science achievement and tied for third in mathematics; the state's 8th graders tied for first in science and ranked sixth in mathematics." http://www.doe.mass.edu/news/news.asp?id=4457



BoaterDan	May 6 2009, 08:13 AM Post #8
Advanced Member Posts: 534 Group: Members Member #60 Joined: May 15, 2007	I just heard discussion of the TIMSS testing in the US on my way in this morning. One thing it shows is that our elementary kids do pretty well internationally, but by the time you get to 12th grade we've fallen off drastically in the rankings. The Massachusetts results are examples of what really gets my goat. While our district's math coordinator considers parents who dare raise questions of the EM movement to be "well intentioned, but misguided", the evidence continues to pile up that the so-called "mound of research" supporting EM is a very lopsided point of view itself. I asked a friend whose kids go to Detroit Country Day, and was told they use a pretty traditional math curriculum. (For Larry's benefit, that is a ultra-elite private school here where the likes of sports stars and Roger Penske send their kids.) Has anybody found or seen a study comparing the public school vs. private/charter school adoption of these programs?



Anna Krome	May 6 2009, 11:36 AM Post #9
Advanced Member Posts: 884 Group: Members Member #47 Joined: May 11, 2007	It's too bad that MA's positive results are not more well known. All of this "our schools stink--always" rhetoric is not helping. Doing things well should be emulated and touted. And, constantly throwing money at the "problem," does not seem to work, either. What does it take to create more informed math/science instructors? And, does that guarantee that the student will "get" it, if they do not have rigorous early training? Do all the Singapore instructors teach the same way? Do all kids "learn" the same way? Why do Asian and Indian children seem to excel at mathematics? I've asked a few of my daughter's friends, and they tell me that their parents tutor them almost every day and throughout the summer. They teach their kids algebra very early on. I had one great math instructor (a Phd) in geometry, and I aced the class. Every other higher-level math class through HS and college, I did average. I never understood why I "got" it that one year--and I attributed it to the instructor. I called Kumon and asked them how they tutor in math. The owner told me through rigorous drilling and many, many worksheets. She said it was a combination of methodologies. NO EM, at all.
	Krome on Cars


IlikeLIvonia	May 6 2009, 12:05 PM Post #10
Advanced Member Posts: 923 Group: Members Member #44 Joined: May 11, 2007	Anna Krome May 6 2009, 11:36 AM It's too bad that MA's positive results are not more well known. All of this "our schools stink--always" rhetoric is not helping. Doing things well should be emulated and touted. And, constantly throwing money at the "problem," does not seem to work, either. What does it take to create more informed math/science instructors? And, does that guarantee that the student will "get" it, if they do not have rigorous early training? Do all the Singapore instructors teach the same way? Do all kids "learn" the same way? Why do Asian and Indian children seem to excel at mathematics? I've asked a few of my daughter's friends, and they tell me that their parents tutor them almost every day and throughout the summer. They teach their kids algebra very early on. I had one great math instructor (a Phd) in geometry, and I aced the class. Every other higher-level math class through HS and college, I did average. I never understood why I "got" it that one year--and I attributed it to the instructor. I called Kumon and asked them how they tutor in math. The owner told me through rigorous drilling and many, many worksheets. She said it was a combination of methodologies. NO EM, at all. http://www.kumon.com/method/math.asp?language=USA Kumon Math is a comprehensive program that develops the necessary skills to help a child progress from counting to calculus. Often children have trouble simplifying fractional expressions in algebra because they have not mastered basic calculations. The Kumon Method develops proficiency at every level, so Kumon students build the solid foundation they need to advance more successfully and confidently through their school's math curriculum. The ease with which Kumon students routinely learn to perform basic operations and solve problems is perhaps the most dramatic testament to the effectiveness of the Kumon Method. Highlights: Vertical addition and subtraction "Students learn vertical addition and subtraction, and encounter word problems. Students build advanced mental calculation skills as they "carry" in addition questions and "borrow" in questions involving subtraction. Understanding and mastering these concepts reduces errors in the future with multiplication and division." Multiplication/division "Students master the multiplication tables by practicing until they can answer immediately. Next, students learn up to 4-digit by 1-digit multiplication with mental carryovers. Once multiplication is mastered, simple division by one digit is introduced. Students who have developed good mental calculation ability will not have to write division steps." Long division/introduction to fractions "Students learn double-digit multiplication before advancing to long division. Students also develop estimation skills that will be necessary for future fraction work. Once students' ability to work with all 4 arithmetic operations is confirmed, they begin to study fractions, learning to reduce using the greatest common factor." Fractions "Students learn to add, subtract, multiply, and divide fractions. Proper intermediate steps are emphasized. Students learn basic fraction/decimal conversions." Four operations/decimals "Students continue calculations with fractions, now employing the order of operations. Students work through a challenging section of word problems, as well as continuing to work with decimals." Edited by IlikeLIvonia, May 6 2009, 12:13 PM.



Anna Krome	May 6 2009, 12:30 PM Post #11
Advanced Member Posts: 884 Group: Members Member #47 Joined: May 11, 2007	If Singapore is a small, insular population--that would imply more intermarriage--creating a population likely to have very similar traits, homogeneity and values--such as math proclivity. The apple does not fall far from the tree is extremely true. I'm assuming that there is a high emphasis on scholarship. The anti-intellectualism in this country is a huge problem, as is the tendency to get one's information from only those outlets that reflect our own views.
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Vanna White	May 6 2009, 12:37 PM Post #12
Advanced Member Posts: 809 Group: Members Member #32 Joined: May 10, 2007	Actually Singapore is not homogenous by any means. I have a good friend that lived there for several years, and the population is actually rather diverse. Wikipedia (not always the best source, but fast) says: "The population of Singapore is approximately 4.86 million.[3] Singapore is highly cosmopolitan and diverse with Chinese people forming an ethnic majority with large populations of Malay, Indian and other people. English, Malay, Tamil, and Chinese are the official languages."



Ava	May 6 2009, 01:27 PM Post #13
Advanced Member Posts: 46 Group: Members Member #238 Joined: September 19, 2007	A friend of mine moved to Northville recently from Livonia. She said they don't use Everyday Math or Connected Math. She was very relieved that they were not using Everyday Math. They use Houghton-Mifflin for k-4. Edited by Ava, May 6 2009, 01:28 PM.



Anna Krome	May 7 2009, 09:48 AM Post #14
Advanced Member Posts: 884 Group: Members Member #47 Joined: May 11, 2007	Thanks, Vanna. Singapore sounds fascinating. My point may have been unclear. I realize that there are many cultures in Singapore and that they teach everyone. But because of proximity and the relatively very small population--I assume that there are many marriages of like-minded people. Maybe this would help: Ashkenazi Jews, who may live in many different countries and use different languages--the diaspora--share similar bloodlines and value traits. For example, Tay Sachs is a medical problem among these Jews, due to intermarriage and a lack of bloodline diversity. Traditionally, Jews tended to intermarry, and their values and physical traits become shared and passed along. There is a reason for the cliche' that Jews tend to own businesses and value education to a huge extent. The saying, "My son the lawyer, my son the doctor" is rooted in truth, albeit a cliche' to some intent. I was implying that there is a certain advantage for small countries to promote national concepts, such as a strong value on math and science. There is also an advantage that math proclivity will be shared through genetics. The US is at a disadvantage, to some extent, because of the huge diversity in the nation in educational values and physical traits--not that that means we should not try to improve our children's math and science abilities. LPS teaches in what is essentially an assembly-line manner. Yes, children at the lower end of ability do receive some specialized education throughout the day. But strong students in total immersion, such as those at Webster and Frost, is extremely rare in this country. The best and brightest are not usually siphoned, nor are they encouraged to pursue math and science extensively, as they most likely are in Singapore. There also appears to be a national educational standard in Singapore; whereas, in the US, every school district has their own curriculum. It's a hodgepodge without a national direction toward math and science. That needs to be acknowledged while making broad comparisons. That's my point.
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