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One-year contract settlement; Retirement Incentive
Topic Started: Feb 8 2008, 09:54 PM (3,431 Views)
Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 04:36 PM
It is interesting to see how we compare with the surrounding districts. The variance between districts is huge.

Posted Image

Student counts are not included in the chart. I don't think most of the districts in the chart are anywhere near the size of Livonia, except for PCCS. And I don't think that PCCS has all of the Spec. Ed. programs that we have, which would probably explain the difference in support staff numbers.
There are many SE classes in our district that have one teacher and four parapros because of the needs of the students in the class. There are also individual students who have one teacher and two paras just for themself - I'm not referring to a whole class in those cases.
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al dente
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Does anyone know how many students we are down this year? Or will we not know that until the 2nd count?

Also, I am curious what percentage (pre-LI) of students were bussed versus post-LI?
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Vanna White
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Veteran
You would think that larger districts would be the most efficient at staffing. Wasn't that the whole reason we have the LI...larger and less schools in the district supposedly allowed for more efficient staffing and the elimination of some positions while maintaining classroom teachers? I don't think size is a legitimate excuse for having a higher ratio of support staff.
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Mrs.M
Veteran
Wasn't that the whole reason we have the LI
STUDENT LEARNING - Did you forget?
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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Nikki
Veteran
al dente
Feb 9 2008, 04:29 PM
Does anyone know how many students we are down this year? Or will we not know that until the 2nd count?

Also, I am curious what percentage (pre-LI) of students were bussed versus post-LI?

I think the next count is 2-13.
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Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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Vanna White
Feb 9 2008, 05:31 PM
You would think that larger districts would be the most efficient at staffing. Wasn't that the whole reason we have the LI...larger and less schools in the district supposedly allowed for more efficient staffing and the elimination of some positions while maintaining classroom teachers? I don't think size is a legitimate excuse for having a higher ratio of support staff.

Some example of support staff would be warehouse, mechanics, custodians, kitchen staff, hall monitors, tech support and kdg parapros. Many other districts do not have these positions, or they are sometimes out-sourced, and probably not included in their counts. I know that most other districts have done away with kdg paras, but I feel that they are a valuable addition to a kdg. classroom, and well worth the small price.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
So, which districts would make for a "fair" comparison?
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:39 PM
So, which districts would make for a "fair" comparison?

PCCS would be a close one, except I don't think that they have nearly the SE that LPS does. SE requires more teachers and support staff - bus drivers and paras. There probably isn't a good comparison in Wayne County.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 04:37 PM
Vanna White
Feb 9 2008, 05:31 PM
You would think that larger districts would be the most efficient at staffing.  Wasn't that the whole reason we have the LI...larger and less schools in the district supposedly allowed for more efficient staffing and the elimination of some positions while maintaining classroom teachers?  I don't think size is a legitimate excuse for having a higher ratio of support staff.

Some example of support staff would be warehouse, mechanics, custodians, kitchen staff, hall monitors, tech support and kdg parapros. Many other districts do not have these positions, or they are sometimes out-sourced, and probably not included in their counts. I know that most other districts have done away with kdg paras, but I feel that they are a valuable addition to a kdg. classroom, and well worth the small price.

Student count for Livonia was 17,611, and for Canton it was 18,706.
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Special Ed Students

Livonia 1101
Canton 123
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 04:41 PM
LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:39 PM
So, which districts would make for a "fair" comparison?

PCCS would be a close one, except I don't think that they have nearly the SE that LPS does. SE requires more teachers and support staff - bus drivers and paras. There probably isn't a good comparison in Wayne County.

In that case, I'll run the numbers, excluding SE.
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:48 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 04:37 PM
Vanna White
Feb 9 2008, 05:31 PM
You would think that larger districts would be the most efficient at staffing.  Wasn't that the whole reason we have the LI...larger and less schools in the district supposedly allowed for more efficient staffing and the elimination of some positions while maintaining classroom teachers?  I don't think size is a legitimate excuse for having a higher ratio of support staff.

Some example of support staff would be warehouse, mechanics, custodians, kitchen staff, hall monitors, tech support and kdg parapros. Many other districts do not have these positions, or they are sometimes out-sourced, and probably not included in their counts. I know that most other districts have done away with kdg paras, but I feel that they are a valuable addition to a kdg. classroom, and well worth the small price.

Student count for Livonia was 17,611, and for Canton it was 18,706.

That part is close, yes, but what is our SE population and what is theirs? I think that is where the major staffing differences lie. Also, what difference is there in the teacher contracts as far as teacher to student ratio? What jobs have they outsourced - bus drivers, custodians, kitchen and mechanics are becoming more commonly outsourced, and those employess working for entities other that the school district would not be included on that chart. Much more info is needed than what is provided on the chart in order to make a fair comparison.
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Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:52 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 04:41 PM
LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:39 PM
So, which districts would make for a "fair" comparison?

PCCS would be a close one, except I don't think that they have nearly the SE that LPS does. SE requires more teachers and support staff - bus drivers and paras. There probably isn't a good comparison in Wayne County.

In that case, I'll run the numbers, excluding SE.

The SE teacher, para and bus driver counts are also needed in order to compare.
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Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
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LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:51 PM
Special Ed Students

Livonia 1101
Canton 123

That speaks VOLUMES.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
There you go. They are still are much more efficent than LPS.

Posted Image
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
CoolnCalm
Feb 9 2008, 05:57 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 05:02 PM
LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:51 PM
Special Ed Students

Livonia  1101
Canton    123

That speaks VOLUMES.

Exactly, QofH. Our district houses the cognitvely impaired program at Webster and at the Skill Center for western wayne co. In addition, we also have Perrinville and those staff numbers are always going to be higher because of toileting issues with the little ones. Don't we also have a Visually Impaired program?

I swear, if someone comes on here and rips Special Ed. and the numbers, I will blow a gasket.

As you can see, SE is not the problem. Well, OK it is a problem, but that is with the way SE is funded compared to funding for the general population.

The point, is even with the SE programs removed, LPS is not as efficent as Plymouth-Canton.

“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
CoolnCalm
Feb 9 2008, 06:45 PM
LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 06:36 PM
CoolnCalm
Feb 9 2008, 05:57 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 9 2008, 05:02 PM
LPS Reformer
Feb 9 2008, 05:51 PM
Special Ed Students

Livonia  1101
Canton    123

That speaks VOLUMES.

Exactly, QofH. Our district houses the cognitvely impaired program at Webster and at the Skill Center for western wayne co. In addition, we also have Perrinville and those staff numbers are always going to be higher because of toileting issues with the little ones. Don't we also have a Visually Impaired program?

I swear, if someone comes on here and rips Special Ed. and the numbers, I will blow a gasket.

As you can see, SE is not the problem. Well, OK it is a problem, but that is with the way SE is funded compared to funding for the general population.

The point, is even with the SE programs removed, LPS is not as efficent as Plymouth-Canton.

Define SE "removed" Children who get speech and language for 30 minutes a week are in a regular classroom. How are they factored in? Students with a 504 plan are in a regular classroom, yet they may have a resource room teacher or teacher consultant.

My sp needs child has every right to an education and I am getting very tired of the special ed bashing that goes on on this board. I would love nothing better than to have a 'normal' child. Be thankful you have and quit bellyaching about the "drain sp ed kids cause on the regular ed kids" I know there was a board member that made a comment and I called him on it too.

Two wrongs don't make a right!

The numbers all come from the 2006-07 REP report. This report breaks out all district employees by job function. Thus all employees assigned to SE work are identified.

Thus "removing" means subtracting the SE teachers number from the teaching staff, and subtracting the other SE catagories from support staff. This lets you compare districts without the influence of their SE programs.

You can clearly see, that SE does not explain the difference between LPS and Plymouth-Canton.

“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Posted Image
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Al Beabak
Advanced Member
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Very interesting data comparisons with & without SE numbers. Definetly shows LPS to be lacking in efficiencies. Even small tenths of a percentage point adds up to huge $$$ both short term & long term.
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mmmmkay?
Advanced Member
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"I am getting very tired of the special ed bashing that goes on on this board".


Sorry that you are missing the point CnC. Nobody is bashing Sp. Ed. You are taking it out of context and too personal. If it bothers you that much, and you cannot seperate facts from your own reality then maybe you should take a break from the forum.



mmmmkay?
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