Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Livonianeighbors.com. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. To ensure your privacy, never use personal information in your screen name or email address ("janedoe@hotmail.com" or "Billysmom" for example).

Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
School Board Candidates
Topic Started: Feb 7 2008, 10:29 AM (4,768 Views)
Vanna White
Member Avatar
Veteran
Queen of Hearts
Feb 16 2008, 03:00 PM
Vanna White
Feb 16 2008, 12:43 PM
CoolnCalm
Feb 16 2008, 11:20 AM
Vanna White
Feb 15 2008, 09:18 PM
This is the one time when I ademently disagreed with Mr. King.  I don't think he really had all the information he needed to make a good decision... nor did any of the board.  Presenting infomation then voting on it a week later is just not good enough...not for a decision of that kind of magnitude.  It really doesn't give much time to research and it doesn't give the public much time to give input.  I personally had reservations when I heard about it just based on things I had heard, but it was a very busy week for me and I did not have time to dig into it until after the vote was done.  It was too late to give useful input...not that it would have changed the outcome, since no one except King really ever votes no on anything the administration presents.

The King seems to have enough time to go through the bills of payment with a fine tooth comb. Are you saying that he is penny wise and pound foolish?

Nope. I think all the board members deserve to see things further in advance whenever possible, but I still think he was dead wrong about EM.

The board often gets info in advance of a presentation or a vote. I wouldn't be surprised if they had the info well before a decision was needed.

Also, board members cannot be expected to go through every detail with a fine-toothed comb. They had a committee of respected teachers go over the details and make a recommendation on a math program. Board members cannot be expected to be an expert on every decision that is made, which is the very reason that a committee is put together. They accepted the recommendation of the experts (teachers) in our district.

From what I have heard, they do not get much in advance and, often what they do get is on the Thursday prior to a Monday meeting. I agree they cannot go through every single thing with a fine-toothed comb, but when we are talking about a textbook purchase of over 400k with a completely different and unconventional method of teaching math, I think it's worth more than a week.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanna White
Member Avatar
Veteran
Queen of Hearts
Feb 16 2008, 03:03 PM
Mrs.M
Feb 16 2008, 03:03 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 15 2008, 09:10 PM

He sure did.  This according to the minutes of the Feb. 12, 2007 meeting:

It was moved by Mr. Lessard and supported by Mr. Freeman that the Board of Education of the Livonia Public Schools School District purchase the Everyday Mathematics series for kindergarten through fourth grade classes at a total cost of $406,578.
Ayes: Bailey, Freeman, King, Lessard, Markarian, Scheel
Nays: None

I believe this vote was taken after Whitehead resigned, which is why it is a 6-0 vote.

Maybe I'm reading or interpreting incorrectly...

Was there a vote on whether to approve the new math program for the district?

If a certain program is being instituted into a school district, one that is totally different from what has been taught, would a person be foolish to not get the texts that correspond with that NEW program?

I am sure that the acceptance of the new program was voted on. Go look for the minutes if you really have a concern about it. It would have taken place previous to the Feb. 12 meeting. I do remember a meeting where the math people made a presentation and had the materials available at the meeting. Not sure which meeting that would have been.

It was last February. There was a presentation at a Committee fo the Whole meeting and then the vote was one week later. The agendas and minutes are posted on the LPS web site. There was no info given that really explained the significant difference in this reform program as opposed to the former more traditional approach. It was presented simply as a textbook adaptation.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IlikeLIvonia
Member Avatar
Veteran
Queen of Hearts
Feb 16 2008, 08:00 PM
Also, board members cannot be expected to go through every detail with a fine-toothed comb. They had a committee of respected teachers go over the details and make a recommendation on a math program. Board members cannot be expected to be an expert on every decision that is made, which is the very reason that a committee is put together. They accepted the recommendation of the experts (teachers) in our district.

I'm not convinced that the teachers should have been or are the ultimate experts in this issue. Unfortunately some teachers may have had little more than a course in "how to teach elementary math" while in college. I would have deferred to the mathematicians as to the soundness of the program and to it's ability to prepare student's for higher level math. Most teachers can't tell you exactly how a program like EM accomplishes that goal. I do not think that some of them have a strong enough or broad enough understanding of math to do so. Conversely, I've read in detail, the testimony of some of this country's greatest minds in math count off the precise areas in which these programs fail our children. I've yet to hear an adequate rebuttal from any school district or even the author's of the program as to how my child will move up the ladder to calculus armed with the lattice and partial quotients. Have you?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Micki
I love teaching.
Queen of Hearts
Feb 14 2008, 10:31 PM
Nikki
Feb 14 2008, 09:11 PM
He saved the district shipping costs on their new substandard math program.

He takes credit for that, yes, but even if he hadn't brought up the shipping costs, there were several other people that I know of (myself included) who would have made the very same suggestion about getting those costs reduced/eliminated. He just happened to have a microphone available, and was able to take advantage of that opportunity before others were able to.

Oh please. Would you rather take the credit? Are you a BOE member in disguise or something? Were you upset he beat you to the punch? For goodness sakes. I don't even like the guy but I can give him credit when credit is due. I didn't know you needed a pat on the back as well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
al dente
Member
[ *  * ]
Micki
Feb 16 2008, 03:47 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 14 2008, 10:31 PM
Nikki
Feb 14 2008, 09:11 PM
He saved the district shipping costs on their new substandard math program.

He takes credit for that, yes, but even if he hadn't brought up the shipping costs, there were several other people that I know of (myself included) who would have made the very same suggestion about getting those costs reduced/eliminated. He just happened to have a microphone available, and was able to take advantage of that opportunity before others were able to.

Oh please. Would you rather take the credit? Are you a BOE member in disguise or something? Were you upset he beat you to the punch? For goodness sakes. I don't even like the guy but I can give him credit when credit is do. I didn't know you needed a pat on the back as well.

Ms. Alles should have been the one who negotiated better terms on the shipping. She appeared to accept whatever they told her.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nikki
Veteran
IlikeLIvonia
Feb 16 2008, 03:44 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 16 2008, 08:00 PM
Also, board members cannot be expected to go through every detail with a fine-toothed comb.  They had a committee of respected teachers go over the details and make a recommendation on a math program.  Board members cannot be expected to be an expert on every decision that is made, which is the very reason that a committee is put together.  They accepted the recommendation of the experts (teachers) in our district.

I'm not convinced that the teachers should have been or are the ultimate experts in this issue. Unfortunately some teachers may have had little more than a course in "how to teach elementary math" while in college. I would have deferred to the mathematicians as to the soundness of the program and to it's ability to prepare student's for higher level math. Most teachers can't tell you exactly how a program like EM accomplishes that goal. I do not think that some of them have a strong enough or broad enough understanding of math to do so. Conversely, I've read in detail, the testimony of some of this country's greatest minds in math count off the precise areas in which these programs fail our children. I've yet to hear an adequate rebuttal from any school district or even the author's of the program as to how my child will move up the ladder to calculus armed with the lattice and partial quotients. Have you?

That was brought up at our "math night"---How does EM prepare for higher level math? The 1st grade "coach" said that she didn't know. She said she could only speak for 1st grade. :blink: This same teacher also served on the "math committee."

We (parents) heard a lot about the games and the "fun" aspect of the program, but not much about the content. A parent requested a demonstration of lattice method and the teacher had trouble doing it. As I recall, it took two teachers to figure it out. Of course, they were put on the spot.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Queen of Hearts
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Micki
Feb 16 2008, 04:47 PM
Queen of Hearts
Feb 14 2008, 10:31 PM
Nikki
Feb 14 2008, 09:11 PM
He saved the district shipping costs on their new substandard math program.

He takes credit for that, yes, but even if he hadn't brought up the shipping costs, there were several other people that I know of (myself included) who would have made the very same suggestion about getting those costs reduced/eliminated. He just happened to have a microphone available, and was able to take advantage of that opportunity before others were able to.

Oh please. Would you rather take the credit? Are you a BOE member in disguise or something? Were you upset he beat you to the punch? For goodness sakes. I don't even like the guy but I can give him credit when credit is due. I didn't know you needed a pat on the back as well.

I am not a board member in disguise, Micki. If I was, I would have had a microphone available that night too.

I am just saying that even if he hadn't spoke up, there was going to be an uproar over the shipping costs, as I and others have not been shy when it comes to speaking up to board members when we disagree with something. Just because we do it privately and you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean it is not happening.

I highly doubt that the high price of shipping on the textbooks would have been paid, with or without Steve King.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IlikeLIvonia
Member Avatar
Veteran
Nikki
Feb 16 2008, 09:01 PM
That was brought up at  our "math night"---How does EM prepare for higher level math?  The 1st grade "coach" said that she didn't know.  She said she could only speak for 1st grade. :blink: This same teacher also served on the "math committee."


This is absurd. How can teacher's commit themselves to this program without being able to answer such a basic question? Educ8tor dodged the same question earlier...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mrs.M
Veteran
Continuing with the EM thoughts and approval of such..(yes I know there are many pages in another section of this forum)

I spent a fair amount of time looking for the minutes of the meeting where a discussion was had, regarding adopting this 'new program' for all schools K-4, except Webster, to no avail.

I assumed it would be in Feb, 2007, yet the only meeting listed and minutes of was a Feb 05 2007 special meeting-minutes follow:


MINUTES
BOARD OF EDUCATION
Livonia Public Schools
15125 Farmington Road
Special Meeting
February 5, 2007

President Scheel convened the meeting at 6:06 p.m., in Conference Room A, 15125 Farmington Road, Livonia.

Members Present:
Tom Bailey, Robert Freeman, Steve King, Daniel Lessard, Cynthia Markarian, Lynda Scheel

Members Absent:
Kevin Whitehead (arrived at 6:30 p.m.)

Audience Communications:
None.

Recess to Closed Session:
It was moved by Mr. Lessard and supported by Mr. Freeman that the Board of Education of the Livonia Public Schools School District recess to closed session for the purpose of Negotiations.

Ayes: Bailey, Freeman, King, Lessard, Markarian, Scheel
Nays: None

President recessed the meeting to closed session at 6:10 p.m., and reconvened it to Regular session at 6:55 p.m.

Adjournment:
It was moved by Ms. Markarian and supported by Mr. Freeman that the Special Meeting of February 5, 2007 be adjourned.

Ayes: Bailey, Freeman, King, Lessard, Markarian, Scheel, Whitehead
Nays: None

President Scheel adjourned the meeting at 6:56 p.m.

Certification:
I hereby certify that the foregoing is a true copy of the minutes of the Special meeting of February 5, 2007, and that said minutes have been and are available for public inspection in accordance with the provisions of P.A. 267, Michigan Public Acts of 1976.
______________________________
Kevin Whitehead, Secretary
Livonia Board of Education
Off/Supt/ss


The next meeting listed on the school board link was the Feb 12 meeting, I know this is where the purchase for the texts for EM was voted.

Also from the Feb 12 meeting the following:
Lesia and Gregory McQuade, 33782 Bretton, Christine Oglesby, 19990 Southampton Dr., and Kimberly Belanger, 36525 Hees, addressed the Board on how excited their children are about having Everyday Math in their classrooms.

Maybe someone forgot to take minutes? That has happened in the past at meetings or maybe they were accidentally omitted from the website.

I'd truly appreciate if someone would be so kind as to post the link to the meeting, preferably minutes*, where the EM program was introduced, discussed and voted on.

*If it's too much trouble to find them, I understand, I truly do. I had no luck.
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mrs.M
Veteran
OK, so I located the Agenda for the Committee Meeting of Feb 5, 2007. Apparently minutes weren't taken at that Committee Meeting. I was looking for a vote from the BOE approving the actual EM program. Maybe if there a suggestion from the District Chairs/Heads...no vote is needed?
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanna White
Member Avatar
Veteran
Here are the minutes with the vote to adopt EM: http://www.livonia.k12.mi.us/board/archive...07/feb1207.html

It's the last item on the consent agenda.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

The entire EM presentation the week prior to the vote (2-5-07) is on Livonia Neighbors Video. Click this link to view. It is in three parts.

http://video.yahoo.com/mypage/video?&o=10
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Spanky
Member Avatar
Veteran
IlikeLIvonia
Feb 16 2008, 06:29 PM
Nikki
Feb 16 2008, 09:01 PM
That was brought up at  our "math night"---How does EM prepare for higher level math?  The 1st grade "coach" said that she didn't know.  She said she could only speak for 1st grade. :blink: This same teacher also served on the "math committee."


This is absurd. How can teacher's commit themselves to this program without being able to answer such a basic question? Educ8tor dodged the same question earlier...

Well, here's the funny thing ILikeLivonia, I personally know three of those teachers that were on the math committee and of those three not a single one thinks it was the best program for our kids! One said it was "the best they had to choose from" (which is not to be confused with being the best choice for our kids) and the other two said they didn't have much of a choice but to vote for EM. On the first vote, not many teachers voted for EM, but apparently they (I don;t know who 'they' are) kept polling them until they got the answer they wanted....Namely EM.

I personally think someone had an agenda when it came to choosing a math program. I don't know what that agenda was, or who had the agenda, but here we are with an inferior program.

So I guess that would be the answer to your question of commitment to this program...The teachers didn't want it so they are not commited to it. They don't understand it either :(

(And yes, I know this belongs on another thread, but I thought I would try to answer Ilike's question. And besides, has there ever been a thread that didn't get off track? :) )
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IlikeLIvonia
Member Avatar
Veteran
Spanky
Feb 17 2008, 04:10 PM
Well, here's the funny thing ILikeLivonia, I personally know three of those teachers that were on the math committee and of those three not a single one thinks it was the best program for our kids! One said it was "the best they had to choose from" (which is not to be confused with being the best choice for our kids) and the other two said they didn't have much of a choice but to vote for EM. On the first vote, not many teachers voted for EM, but apparently they (I don;t know who 'they' are) kept polling them until they got the answer they wanted....Namely EM.

I personally think someone had an agenda when it came to choosing a math program. I don't know what that agenda was, or who had the agenda, but here we are with an inferior program.

So I guess that would be the answer to your question of commitment to this program...The teachers didn't want it so they are not commited to it. They don't understand it either :(

(And yes, I know this belongs on another thread, but I thought I would try to answer Ilike's question. And besides, has there ever been a thread that didn't get off track? :) )

Thanks, Spanky. As a professional, I'd certainly feel the same way as many of the teachers. I know one teacher, with a strong math background, that did question many of the pieces of EM and was essentially brushed off. It would seem that even many teachers' questions are going unanswered and they are simply being told to open the box and teach from point A to point B. The state of math education seems to rest squarely on the shoulders of teachers. Teachers who have the courage to set the box aside, close the door and do what's right for our kids....make sure they are competent in standard algorithms.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
LPS Reformer
Member Avatar
The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Hmmm... Perhaps we should elect a teacher to the BOE? ;)
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
LPS Reformer
Member Avatar
The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Posted Image
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Livonia Neighbors Forum · Next Topic »
Add Reply