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Committee of the Whole; SPECIAL Meeting - Jan 21, 2008
Topic Started: Jan 21 2008, 12:59 AM (4,518 Views)
yrraH NS
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mmmmkay?
Jan 22 2008, 01:46 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:52 AM
LPS Reformer
Jan 22 2008, 08:30 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 22 2008, 01:52 PM
They get the same percentages (unless they have had a job classification change) that the other union employees receive including steps and longevity.

And why is that? Are they entitled to raises just for showing up?

Precedence.

Precedence over children...how nice! ;)

Nahh... I think she is referring to DEAD Precedence, as in:

Franklin's ($100's), McKinley's ($500), Cleveland's ($1,000's), Madison's ($5,000's), and the almighty Wilson ($100,000).

In the end, it's always about money at LPS.
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Renee Chesney
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yrraH NS
Jan 22 2008, 11:37 PM
mmmmkay?
Jan 22 2008, 01:46 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:52 AM
LPS Reformer
Jan 22 2008, 08:30 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 22 2008, 01:52 PM
They get the same percentages (unless they have had a job classification change) that the other union employees receive including steps and longevity.

And why is that? Are they entitled to raises just for showing up?

Precedence.

Precedence over children...how nice! ;)

Nahh... I think she is referring to DEAD Precedence, as in:

Franklin's ($100's), McKinley's ($500), Cleveland's ($1,000's), Madison's ($5,000's), and the almighty Wilson ($100,000).

In the end, it's always about money at LPS.

You may not like the precedence set by unions but it is what it is. So which precedence arguement are you gonna take - precedence is okay or not okay. Cause if you say it isn't okay, then you have to apply to the Margaret Flowers case. If applied it wouldn't matter what the precedence was as it pertains to others and whether or not they were suspended for similar words. Pick one. Can't have it both ways.
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Whatever
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I'll pick WHATEVER way you do rene, cuz your always right.
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Vanna White
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Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 09:16 AM
yrraH NS
Jan 22 2008, 11:37 PM
mmmmkay?
Jan 22 2008, 01:46 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:52 AM
LPS Reformer
Jan 22 2008, 08:30 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 22 2008, 01:52 PM
They get the same percentages (unless they have had a job classification change) that the other union employees receive including steps and longevity.

And why is that? Are they entitled to raises just for showing up?

Precedence.

Precedence over children...how nice! ;)

Nahh... I think she is referring to DEAD Precedence, as in:

Franklin's ($100's), McKinley's ($500), Cleveland's ($1,000's), Madison's ($5,000's), and the almighty Wilson ($100,000).

In the end, it's always about money at LPS.

You may not like the precedence set by unions but it is what it is. So which precedence arguement are you gonna take - precedence is okay or not okay. Cause if you say it isn't okay, then you have to apply to the Margaret Flowers case. If applied it wouldn't matter what the precedence was as it pertains to others and whether or not they were suspended for similar words. Pick one. Can't have it both ways.

Non-union employees are subject to the policies and practices of the organization, but are not under contract and are not strictly bound by what is contained in a collective bargaining agreement that covers employees in a union to which they do not pay dues. While precendents may be set for the bargaining unit, they do not always apply to those outside of that unit. Ideally an organization would have fair and consistant practices for all employees, of course. That being said, pay and pay increases do not have to be the same across job titles and classifications, since the market may be different for different jobs. I guess you really can have it both ways when there is a legitimate business reason for any differences.
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Renee Chesney
Veteran
Vanna White
Jan 23 2008, 10:11 AM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 09:16 AM
yrraH NS
Jan 22 2008, 11:37 PM
mmmmkay?
Jan 22 2008, 01:46 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:52 AM
LPS Reformer
Jan 22 2008, 08:30 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 22 2008, 01:52 PM
They get the same percentages (unless they have had a job classification change) that the other union employees receive including steps and longevity.

And why is that? Are they entitled to raises just for showing up?

Precedence.

Precedence over children...how nice! ;)

Nahh... I think she is referring to DEAD Precedence, as in:

Franklin's ($100's), McKinley's ($500), Cleveland's ($1,000's), Madison's ($5,000's), and the almighty Wilson ($100,000).

In the end, it's always about money at LPS.

You may not like the precedence set by unions but it is what it is. So which precedence arguement are you gonna take - precedence is okay or not okay. Cause if you say it isn't okay, then you have to apply to the Margaret Flowers case. If applied it wouldn't matter what the precedence was as it pertains to others and whether or not they were suspended for similar words. Pick one. Can't have it both ways.

Non-union employees are subject to the policies and practices of the organization, but are not under contract and are not strictly bound by what is contained in a collective bargaining agreement that covers employees in a union to which they do not pay dues. While precendents may be set for the bargaining unit, they do not always apply to those outside of that unit. Ideally an organization would have fair and consistant practices for all employees, of course. That being said, pay and pay increases do not have to be the same across job titles and classifications, since the market may be different for different jobs. I guess you really can have it both ways when there is a legitimate business reason for any differences.

Oh okay. I forgot different rules for different people.
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yrraH NS
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You are finally beginning to see the light, aren't you. ;)
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Renee Chesney
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yrraH NS
Jan 23 2008, 11:38 AM
You are finally beginning to see the light, aren't you. ;)

You mean your dark twisted side? No I don't think that will be happening :rolleyes:
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yrraH NS
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Did you or did you not say:
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 11:03 AM
Oh okay.  I forgot different rules for different people.


Oh... I guess you did.

Anyway, welcome to the LPS way of business.... :rolleyes:
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Renee Chesney
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yrraH NS
Jan 23 2008, 01:23 PM
Did you or did you not say:
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 11:03 AM
Oh okay.  I forgot different rules for different people.


Oh... I guess you did.

Anyway, welcome to the LPS way of business.... :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
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BoaterDan
Veteran
Well, who does represent the district's financial interests in contract negotiations, if it's not the super?

If there is a surplus of employees in one category and a shortage in another, wouldn't you expect the pay scales and raises to reflect the increasing difficulty in finding and retaining good employees in the latter category? Anything else smacks of Marxism to me, but then I'm a pretty strongly pro free market kind of guy.

If at a particular time well-qualified accountants are a dime a dozen and there's a shortage of teachers, I wouldn't expect the people in the CO accounting department to automatically get the same increases as teachers. Out here in the real world it's not uncommon for average pay to periodically actually fall in certain fields.

Furthermore, as I was trying to say before, if you're a VP of operations at a large company you'd no doubt receive bonuses if you were able to cut % from payroll costs without reducing quality or services significantly.

Doesn't it make sense that there is someone in the district who is supposed to have that point of view? I would have thought that the buyout idea from last year is an example of how the super is thinking along those lines. Indeed, perhaps keeping that on the downlow is part of the reason for the closed sessions - wouldn't want the union to get the idea that he isn't actually always putting them #1.
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Renee Chesney
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BoaterDan
Jan 23 2008, 01:44 PM
Well, who does represent the district's financial interests in contract negotiations, if it's not the super?

If there is a surplus of employees in one category and a shortage in another, wouldn't you expect the pay scales and raises to reflect the increasing difficulty in finding and retaining good employees in the latter category? Anything else smacks of Marxism to me, but then I'm a pretty strongly pro free market kind of guy.

If at a particular time well-qualified accountants are a dime a dozen and there's a shortage of teachers, I wouldn't expect the people in the CO accounting department to automatically get the same increases as teachers. Out here in the real world it's not uncommon for average pay to periodically actually fall in certain fields.

Furthermore, as I was trying to say before, if you're a VP of operations at a large company you'd no doubt receive bonuses if you were able to cut % from payroll costs without reducing quality or services significantly.

Doesn't it make sense that there is someone in the district who is supposed to have that point of view? I would have thought that the buyout idea from last year is an example of how the super is thinking along those lines. Indeed, perhaps keeping that on the downlow is part of the reason for the closed sessions - wouldn't want the union to get the idea that he isn't actually always putting them #1.

The board. They set the guidelines (albeit usually at the superintendent's recommendation). A bargaining team is set up to negotiate and when a deal is made it is approved by the board. The meat and potatoes certainly isn't the 1 to 2 percent raises, it is in the steps and longeviety. In the real world it certainly wouldn't be my way of chosing to compensate, but it is what it is at this point. Still in the real world of publicly traded companies, the raises are generally the same percentages across the board whether you are an admin, middle manager or executive, but the execs rise above it through stock options, restricted stock, perks (that has its own set of issues - i.e. the Chairman of the NYSE and Bob Nardelli when he was at Home Depot just as a couple of examples). Just a few comments here - Randy is paid far less than other superintendents in this area and I would have to think that the cabinet is also. Reform in how we pay our public school employees - sure, but you are going to have to knock on the State's door to get some of it changed (i.e. guaranteed pensions and health insurance for life after 10 years). I am sure there are many creative ways to address it. My disclaimer - I wish there tons of extra $$$$ to pay people who add value to our children's lives because as was seen at the last board meeting with the golden apple receipient, some go way above and beyond to provide an education to our children.
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yrraH NS
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Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:18 PM
In the real world it certainly wouldn't be my way of chosing to compensate, but it is what it is at this point.

Well Renee,

Why don't you stand up with the rest of us 'malcontents' and voice your concerns...

or you can just follow has you always have....

By the way, which real world are you talking about? The one that the REST of the business world lives in, or the one that the CO, Admin, and BOE live in?
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Renee Chesney
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yrraH NS
Jan 23 2008, 04:40 PM
Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:18 PM
In the real world it certainly wouldn't be my way of chosing to compensate, but it is what it is at this point.

Well Renee,

Why don't you stand up with the rest of us 'malcontents' and voice your concerns...

or you can just follow has you always have....

At least you realize you are a group of malcontents, although I prefer the you being referred to as a terrorist :rolleyes:

I believe said some of this needs to come down from the State of Michigan. I also believe that the unions should be given the opportunity to come up with ideas which would be fair and equitable to avoid creating another group of malcontents. Although it really would be the only way to get the unions on your side. Now go ahead and start whinning again about the LI and how nice it would have been if you would have a say.

It is not just our Administration and Unions living in this world. It is that way with a lot of unions and in just about every Michigan School District. It is the culture like or not.
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yrraH NS
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In this day and age, I can't believe that people like yourself are happy living in a "It is what it is" world. :huh:

If it truly "is the culture", then why wouldn't our BOE - whom you have stated (under the direction of LIepa) 'set the guidelines' for negotiations, set DIFFERENT guidelines... That is IF they truly wield the power as you say...
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BoaterDan
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Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 02:18 PM
The board. They set the guidelines (albeit usually at the superintendent's recommendation). A bargaining team is set up to negotiate and when a deal is made it is approved by the board. The meat and potatoes certainly isn't the 1 to 2 percent raises, it is in the steps and longeviety.

So, then you admit one of the people who stands to benefit personally from negotiations less favorable (financially) to the district is the one who recommends the position the district should take in them.

You don't see a problem with that?

I'm not speaking of anything sinister at LPS in particular, I'm just saying it seems to me that there is a definite conflict of interest if this is how districts are run. I personally would want an arrangement with the superintendent at least, and probably with all the CO but especially the finance people, that was completely independent of those negotiations. Said very bluntly, Randy you get favorable marks, which are represented financially, for devising a plan that keeps us from having to pay out higher salaries to the staff below you (speaking of the buyout plan), not because the union was able to get a better step increase negotiated.

The latter seems utterly upside-down to me.
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Renee Chesney
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yrraH NS
Jan 23 2008, 04:51 PM
In this day and age, I can't believe that people like yourself are happy living in a "It is what it is" world. :huh:

If it truly "is the culture", then why wouldn't our BOE - whom you have stated (under the direction of LIepa) 'set the guidelines' for negotiations, set DIFFERENT guidelines... That is IF they truly wield the power as you say...

Why because the unions will be the first to point out all the other schools districts who do things the way we do and how it isn't fair, etc., etc. I think we are headed for some changes but you have to allow them to evolve. As the UAW changes you will see changes in our district, but I still stand firm on a lot of money savings can come from the state backing off on 18% of everyone's salary going into their guaranteed pension and people who have as little as 10 years in receiving really good health benefits for the rest of their life. Just because someone gets a better deal than you doesn't mean you have to be a hater. Remember these are the people who affect our children on a day to day basis. From bus driver to custodian to parapro to school secretary to teacher to principal. Just a little dose of reality versus oversimplification.
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CoolnCalm
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Renee Chesney
Jan 23 2008, 05:04 PM
yrraH NS
Jan 23 2008, 04:51 PM
In this day and age, I can't believe that people like yourself are happy living in a "It is what it is" world.  :huh:

If it truly "is the culture", then why wouldn't our BOE - whom you have stated (under the direction of LIepa) 'set the guidelines' for negotiations, set DIFFERENT guidelines... That is IF they truly wield the power as you say...

Why because the unions will be the first to point out all the other schools districts who do things the way we do and how it isn't fair, etc., etc. I think we are headed for some changes but you have to allow them to evolve. As the UAW changes you will see changes in our district, but I still stand firm on a lot of money savings can come from the state backing off on 18% of everyone's salary going into their guaranteed pension and people who have as little as 10 years in receiving really good health benefits for the rest of their life. Just because someone gets a better deal than you doesn't mean you have to be a hater. Remember these are the people who affect our children on a day to day basis. From bus driver to custodian to parapro to school secretary to teacher to principal. Just a little dose of reality versus oversimplification.

While it would be nice to get the state and local goverments out of controling our local schools, I think it is going to get much worse and we are going to need the unions to fight some of the issues that these goverments and ISDs are trying to implement.

The state and ISDs are trying to make ALL schools follow the same calendar and days off. The local ISD will dictate how long the winter holiday break will be, WHEN professional development days will be held, etc. The local districts will have NO power or control. Already the locals are mandated that they can't start school before Labor Day. While we may think this is a good idea, it does take away local control and local input.

The state already dictates the curriculum. What's next???
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
Forcing them to balace their budget?
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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Mrs.M
Veteran
So many people and groups always blame the state for their woes. The State made us do it. The State doesn't give us enough money. The State mandates this, the State mandates that. It's too bad people don't take responsibilty for their own actions. By the same token it's also too bad some groups have to wait for the State to guide them. Some school districts needed a State Mandate to practice lock down drills?? The State made LPS change to EM.
I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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LPS Reformer
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The schools exist to educate, not employ.
LPS Reformer
Jan 21 2008, 09:44 PM
By the way, here is an interesting aside. Good ol Mr. Lessard stayed in the closed meeting, just long enough for the roll to be taken. 5 minutes later, he was in his car, leaving the parking lot. Anyone want to lay odds he still gets his $50 for the second meeting?

An update.

The board members do get $50 for the special meeting. And, Lessard did stay long enough for rocall, and then left. However, he went home and returned while the rest of the board waited. He did attend the meeting.

Now, wether you can call his participation as "earning" the $50, is up for debate. ;)
“Child Abuse” means different things to different people....
----Randy Liepa 8/9/12
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