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Pledge of Allegiance
Topic Started: Sep 13 2007, 08:52 PM (5,876 Views)
Vanna White
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Oct 13 2007, 08:40 AM
Mrs.M
Oct 12 2007, 10:42 PM
My two cents.  It's becoming more than just the pledge, it's the omission of any word or message that has the slightest religious overtone.  i.e. The greeting Merry Christmas and having Christmas trees in our classes and referring to them as such.  Holiday trees?  I guess I could send a valentine card for that holiday in December you know which one.  Or an Easter card, (no wait, that's a religious Holyday, although the date is determined based on the moon, which determines Ash Wednesday)

It's unfortunate - what has come to our schools and society overkill with being politically correct and sensitive to those who may have varying beliefs...

I agree, children are learning in the early grades that 'you don't talk about Church or God' in school.  And the children understand it's a no-no, and that's sad.  Interesting though in April and May you hear the buzz in the second grade..First Communion and that's good.

I agree Mrs. M. I would like to hear Vanna and Olive's perspective on the labor aspect of these holidays.

Do either of you feel that paid/unpaid holidays should be afforded to gov't employees? If we are not going to allow the words 'Christmas break, trees, etc' in the schools(or displays at city hall, etc), then why afford gov't employees time off for these holidays? After all, they are christian holidays--why subject gov't employees to having to take time off to celebrate these 'christian' beliefs.

Seems like a huge(and convenient) double standard to me.

I have no problem with companies or the government giving time off for holidays nor did I ever say that certain words should be omitted from the vocabulary. I think it's best if employers can find ways to accomodate non-christian holidays when possible, too. Some use "float holidays" so employees of faiths or cultures other than Christian can take days when it is important to them.

Decorations that do not depict a god, a messiah, a saint, etc. but are more symbolic or festive (trees, lights or candles, stars, pumpkins, hearts, special colors, etc) are just fine on public property in my opinion. I put decorations in my own house and I like to teach my children about the wide variety of traditions and practices associated with various cultures and religions. None of these things bother me in the least and I am not looking to remove everything to do with religion from the world. I just don't want someone teaching my child to say a pledge with the words "under God" without my knowlege or permission.

There is a huge difference between seeing decorations or having a day off as opposed to having children memorize and recite a pledge daily. Try to imagine if the words "under God" were replaced with "under Allah" or "under Buddah," and your children were taught to recite them every day. That may help you to begin to understand how I feel about it.

I do not understand what you think is a "huge (and convenient) double standard," but if you clarify I will try to respond.
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Nikki
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"Allah" means God in Arabic. Personally I wouldn't say "under Allah", but I don't mind if someone else says "under Allah."
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Vanna White
Oct 13 2007, 12:28 PM
Major Card Player
Oct 13 2007, 08:40 AM
Mrs.M
Oct 12 2007, 10:42 PM
My two cents.  It's becoming more than just the pledge, it's the omission of any word or message that has the slightest religious overtone.  i.e. The greeting Merry Christmas and having Christmas trees in our classes and referring to them as such.  Holiday trees?  I guess I could send a valentine card for that holiday in December you know which one.  Or an Easter card, (no wait, that's a religious Holyday, although the date is determined based on the moon, which determines Ash Wednesday)

It's unfortunate - what has come to our schools and society overkill with being politically correct and sensitive to those who may have varying beliefs...

I agree, children are learning in the early grades that 'you don't talk about Church or God' in school.  And the children understand it's a no-no, and that's sad.  Interesting though in April and May you hear the buzz in the second grade..First Communion and that's good.

I agree Mrs. M. I would like to hear Vanna and Olive's perspective on the labor aspect of these holidays.

Do either of you feel that paid/unpaid holidays should be afforded to gov't employees? If we are not going to allow the words 'Christmas break, trees, etc' in the schools(or displays at city hall, etc), then why afford gov't employees time off for these holidays? After all, they are christian holidays--why subject gov't employees to having to take time off to celebrate these 'christian' beliefs.

Seems like a huge(and convenient) double standard to me.

I have no problem with companies or the government giving time off for holidays nor did I ever say that certain words should be omitted from the vocabulary. I think it's best if employers can find ways to accomodate non-christian holidays when possible, too. Some use "float holidays" so employees of faiths or cultures other than Christian can take days when it is important to them.

Decorations that do not depict a god, a messiah, a saint, etc. but are more symbolic or festive (trees, lights or candles, stars, pumpkins, hearts, special colors, etc) are just fine on public property in my opinion. I put decorations in my own house and I like to teach my children about the wide variety of traditions and practices associated with various cultures and religions. None of these things bother me in the least and I am not looking to remove everything to do with religion from the world. I just don't want someone teaching my child to say a pledge with the words "under God" without my knowlege or permission.

There is a huge difference between seeing decorations or having a day off as opposed to having children memorize and recite a pledge daily. Try to imagine if the words "under God" were replaced with "under Allah" or "under Buddah," and your children were taught to recite them every day. That may help you to begin to understand how I feel about it.

I do not understand what you think is a "huge (and convenient) double standard," but if you clarify I will try to respond.

Well, my point is that if we are so focused on the separation of church and state in the schools that we take the measure of removing the words under God from that pledge, then we should not be allowing or supporting the idea of paid or unpaid 'Godly holidays' for state employees.

IMO, it is a hypocritical to support the holiday and it's benefits (vacation time, bonuses, state sponsored parties, etc), but then do not allow it's celebration, decorations (or even the mention of the creator of them) in the state-funded schools or other public properties. After all, we would not have these holidays w/o Christian basics.

To me, the country was founded on Christian values, not Buddist or Arabic ones. In this country, I would not be happy if my child were saying 'under Allah'. I would not expect that to be the case in other country's around the world, where their majority supports allah.

BTW, if you knew your child was saying the pledge, then you knew he was saying 'under God'--so perhaps without your permission, but not without your knowledge . If so opposed, why not teach him to opt out of that line when he began kindergarten?

Just my opinion--not trying to offend anyone.
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Vanna White
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I did not know he was saying the Pledge at all, so I had no way to prepare him up front had I wanted to. I did not know that this was done in public school still, since my last several years at LPS we did not say the Pledge in school. I had no way of knowing that it had be re-instituted at some point. I work, and I while I always volunteer for a couple of field trips every year and attend special activities, I had never been in the classroom in the beginning of the day. I found out after he came home and recited it to me.
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Sourapples
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I don't believe my kids say pledge. But either way, is it possible to just omit the words under God without going into a lengthy explanation? Just begin to teach it differently?
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Extra Olives
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I will say Merry Christmas to someone I know celebrates the holiday. But store clerks and other people in the business world don't always know who celebrates what. Can you tell just by looking at someone whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslin....? I just recently learned that a family I know with a very Irish surname are, in fact, Jewish. Also, at the end of December, there are 2 holidays that people celebrate, Christmas and New Year's. I know I often will say Happy Holidays, meaning enjoy both holidays, not necessariloy because it is the politically correct thing to say.

As for vacation times and work parties, etc., I get your point, MCP, but I also think it's more a matter of convenience for many businesses. You know that many people travel out of town for the Christmas holiday, largely because Christians outnumber everyone else in the U.S. I don't have a problem with businesses and schools closing during that 1-2 week period because half their workforce would be on vacation anyway. And work place parties don't bother me either because many different religions and cultures have some sort of December celebration. Just don't exclude people or make it a religious observance. I am not offended by the more secular decorations either. Christmas trees are pretty, and are not "religious" symbols of the Christian faith. I know several Jewish people who think they are festive too, and will put decorated trees in their homes (some have called them "Hanukka bushes!) Same goes for springtime holidays; many cultures celebrate springtime in some way. Putting crosses all over town would be offensive to many people, however, I have no issue with bunnies and colored eggs.
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Vanna White
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Extra Olives
Oct 13 2007, 08:57 PM
I will say Merry Christmas to someone I know celebrates the holiday. But store clerks and other people in the business world don't always know who celebrates what. Can you tell just by looking at someone whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslin....? I just recently learned that a family I know with a very Irish surname are, in fact, Jewish. Also, at the end of December, there are 2 holidays that people celebrate, Christmas and New Year's. I know I often will say Happy Holidays, meaning enjoy both holidays, not necessariloy because it is the politically correct thing to say.

As for vacation times and work parties, etc., I get your point, MCP, but I also think it's more a matter of convenience for many businesses. You know that many people travel out of town for the Christmas holiday, largely because Christians outnumber everyone else in the U.S. I don't have a problem with businesses and schools closing during that 1-2 week period because half their workforce would be on vacation anyway. And work place parties don't bother me either because many different religions and cultures have some sort of December celebration. Just don't exclude people or make it a religious observance. I am not offended by the more secular decorations either. Christmas trees are pretty, and are not "religious" symbols of the Christian faith. I know several Jewish people who think they are festive too, and will put decorated trees in their homes (some have called them "Hanukka bushes!) Same goes for springtime holidays; many cultures celebrate springtime in some way. Putting crosses all over town would be offensive to many people, however, I have no issue with bunnies and colored eggs.

Exactly, Olive! My Muslim co-worker puts up a Christmas tree every year, because she and her husband have chosen to add the secular part of Christmas into their own traditions. Others may chose not to, but I have never heard of anyone being offended by a tree.
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Nikki
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My son's preschool had a bulletin board decorated with lyrics from the various "holidays":

-lyrics to the "driedle song" along with a Menora

-lyrics to a Kwanza song

-lyrics to "Frosty the Snowman"

As a Christian I felt as though I wasn't represented. I put up the lyrics to "Away in a manger."

This was the year everyone was making a big deal out of saying "Merry Christmas."

I wonder how the Muslims felt? There was no mention of Ramadan. :unsure:
My feeling is, if one "holiday" is going to be represented, then they all should be.
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Nikki
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[size=7]God in School [/size]
October 17, 2007
http://www.edweek.org/ew/section/tb/2007/10/16/3960.html

In a recent Education Week Commentary, professor Joseph P. Viteritti writes that as American schools take in more immigrants from Asia, Africa, and the Middle East, educators will need to find ways to welcome these newcomers and respect their traditions. While religious charter schools could help fulfill this need, Mr. Viteritti argues that such schools cross the constitutional line between church and state.


However, he says that charter schools can help new students adapt, and educators should consider trying a few secular schools.


What do you think? Should districts experiment with religious charter schools? Would these schools cross the boundary between church and state?

Responses
Response From: John PIrtel / teacher/cusultant
10/17/2007 6:27AM
I don't know how many of you have been watching KID NATION;in 10/10's episode they addressed RELIGION as a moral compass. I suggest if you have ON DEMAND services check out the show.... (it's a good classroom tool too)

Does a religious charter school cross the line of church/state issue? I don't think so, since the separation of church and state is more of a governmental issue and charter schools float outside of the governmental Board of Education.

I don't see it as anything different than a charter school with a science focus or a leadership focus.

The problem with religious charter schools is the issue of segregation of populations, this time not across racial lines but across religious lines.

Example: what happens if you have a Christian charter school which has an incredibly innovative allied arts program and a Muslim,Jewish, Hindu or Atheist child wants to attend the school because of this program... are they allowed to?

Religion in school has always been a sticky issue, and the moral compass offered by religion, any religion definitely is a survival need of our species.

God by any name you may call him/her/them is still God; should the concept be invoked in a charter school? Perhaps...

Response From: John Boyd
10/17/2007 8:52AM
I strongly disagree with establishing any religious public schools. Charter schools are public schools too, and they must be held accountable just as other public schools are. True accountability includes not only finances and student achievement but also compliance with the law. Religious charter schools would use public funds to sponsor religious teaching, and that is clearly state establishment of religion and violates the First Amendment freedoms that have united our country for over two centuries. We are in great danger of losing this historic unity today. Public schools helped prepare previous generations of immigrants for citizenship. If we balkanize our public schools by splitting them into charter schools with competing agendas that do not advance citizenship first, we will fail to keep our republic and American way of life.

Response From: Pako
10/17/2007 10:02AM
Churches are free to establish private religious schools, just as they always have. Parents are free to enroll their children in such institutions. Public (taxpayer-funded) schools should be free of religious endorsements because they are civil programs (secular not religious). Everyone belongs to the public, but not everyone belongs to religion. Religion is a personal choice and belief system that should never be publicly offered to children who yet don't have the capacity to rationalize the complexities of supernatural belief systems.

Response From: Donald E. Mathis, Teacher
10/17/2007 10:48AM
Read the Constitution: "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establisment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Now, show me any laws that Congress has passed, or attempted to pass, that establishes The First Church of the United States of America, or for that matter, any law proposed that would prohibit the free exercise of religion. There are a plethora of faulty decisions that have been handed down by the Supreme Court (faulty in the sense that they are not based on what is actually written in the Constitution), but when did it become the Supreme Court's function to make laws? I've read the Constitution many times and can't seem to find the Court's law-making functions.

There is no "Constitutional" line of "separation of church and state." That is a construct of the Court. "Separation of church and state" is nowhere written in the Constitution. The phrase comes from a letter written by Jefferson, to a church, in the very early 1800's. It was taken out of context by the Court and has been applied as if it where the law, which it isn't.

Am I the only one in the country that sees this? Where are our legislators and school leaders on this very important matter? Why aren't they outraged and up in arms about the usurpation of the legislative powers by the Supreme Court? Why do educators continue to buy into the idea that by allowing religious expression of any kind in a school, that the school, and therefore "government," is establishing a religion. It just ain't so. Read the Constitution!

Response From: Trish Christie/Early Childhood Specialist
10/17/2007 11:34AM
Charter schools are a choice -- parents choose to send their children. They would be fully aware of the religious theme and, yes, all children would certainly be allowed to enroll, regardless of religious affiliation. These parents are already paying public school taxes, why not allow these to be put toward the school of their choice.

Response From: Matt
10/17/2007 11:56AM
No problem here.

Familes are making the CHOICE to send their students to these schools. No one is prohibited from attending.

If you deny families the right to go to a religous charter school, then you are denying them their religious beliefs. Non-religion is its own religion.

Government can't impose religion on others, but it can't deny them religion either.

Religious charter schools are completely constitutional, because they are based upon free choice.

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REB84
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The pledge is actually a relic of the Cold War, not a "long term American tradition."

Still, I voted to keep it. Reciting the pledge is one of my earliest memories.

Its words speak to the thing we used to call the constitution, and our Founding Fathers' quaint ideals of "liberty and justice for all."
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