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Pledge of Allegiance
Topic Started: Sep 13 2007, 08:52 PM (5,878 Views)
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Extra Olives
Oct 10 2007, 09:00 PM
Micki
Oct 10 2007, 07:24 AM
In a truly democratic society the majority rules on matters that pertain to education.  Those that don't believe can opt to not say it.  That is their right.  But the other 20+ kids in the classroom that do believe and agree should not have their rights taken away because of a few people that don't want to say it.  In that case they are being discriminated against as well.

The Pleadge of Allegience is to the FLAG and our COUNTRY, not God. No one is telling anyone they cannot worship, pray, etc. in whatever way they choose. Just don't put it in the Pladge or any other government related documents. It doesn't belong there.

To say people would be discriminated against by taking out those two words is ridculous.

No one is being 'discriminated against' by leaving them in either.
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Micki
I love teaching.
Extra Olives
Oct 10 2007, 09:00 PM
Micki
Oct 10 2007, 07:24 AM
In a truly democratic society the majority rules on matters that pertain to education.  Those that don't believe can opt to not say it.  That is their right.  But the other 20+ kids in the classroom that do believe and agree should not have their rights taken away because of a few people that don't want to say it.  In that case they are being discriminated against as well.

The Pleadge of Allegience is to the FLAG and our COUNTRY, not God. No one is telling anyone they cannot worship, pray, etc. in whatever way they choose. Just don't put it in the Pladge or any other government related documents. It doesn't belong there.

To say people would be discriminated against by taking out those two words is ridculous.

It may be ridiculous to you but it is serious to me.
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Extra Olives
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 04:35 PM
Extra Olives
Oct 10 2007, 09:00 PM
Micki
Oct 10 2007, 07:24 AM
In a truly democratic society the majority rules on matters that pertain to education.  Those that don't believe can opt to not say it.  That is their right.  But the other 20+ kids in the classroom that do believe and agree should not have their rights taken away because of a few people that don't want to say it.  In that case they are being discriminated against as well.

The Pleadge of Allegience is to the FLAG and our COUNTRY, not God. No one is telling anyone they cannot worship, pray, etc. in whatever way they choose. Just don't put it in the Pladge or any other government related documents. It doesn't belong there.

To say people would be discriminated against by taking out those two words is ridculous.

It may be ridiculous to you but it is serious to me.

It is to me too. In what way would leaving the Pledge the way it was pre 1954 be discriminating to you or anyone else? The separation of church and state is very important to me.
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Micki
I love teaching.
Separation of church and state is not absence of God.
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Micki
I love teaching.
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 06:55 PM
Separation of church and state is not absence of God.

I have been really thinking about this phrase because I do believe that a segment of people are trying to stifle people that love and worship God. I have been stuck on the words separation of church and state and thinking about the distinctions and how it has become an excuse to leave God out altogether. I feel like there is a distinct difference between church and religion in this phrase. What are your thoughts?

My child should be allowed to say under God and yours can choose not to say it. This is a society that was formed on Judeo Christian beliefs. It may have been added later, but why was it added later?
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Vanna White
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:06 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 06:55 PM
Separation of church and state is not absence of God.

I have been really thinking about this phrase because I do believe that a segment of people are trying to stifle people that love and worship God. I have been stuck on the words separation of church and state and thinking about the distinctions and how it has become an excuse to leave God out altogether. I feel like there is a distinct difference between church and religion in this phrase. What are your thoughts?

My child should be allowed to say under God and yours can choose not to say it. This is a society that was formed on Judeo Christian beliefs. It may have been added later, but why was it added later?

Your child should be able to say "under God" if she wants to. She should be able to say grace before eating lunch or say a prayer to herself during recess if she wants to. I have no problem with any of that. I teach my children to respect other people's religion. What I do have a problem with is when it becomes a regular portion of the day for all children, when it becomes a statement, pledge or words that all children are taught to memorize, when there is a time for prayer in the day or when/if a teacher or other adult tries to teach their faith to the children.

There were many years between when I attended school and when my kids started school. I remember saying the Pledge of Allegence up until 3rd grade at Cooper Elementary. When we moved north and I attended Clay Elementary, and we did not say the Pledge and I never said it again throughout the rest of my schooling.

When my kids started school, I never even considered that teachers would still have kids saying a Pledge with the words "under God." I guess I just assumed that they would not do that out of respect for the fact that not everyone believes in a god or they may chose to call their god Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Krishna or something else. I thought that we had moved beyond that in our schools.

Imagine my surprise when my child came home reciting the Pledge and the words "under God." Apparently he had been saying this for a while. I was not going to go up to the school and complain or ask that my child be singled out and not participate, but I was in fact offended that the school would intrude into my family like that by teaching such a thing to my child without my permission.

They make you sign a paper to have your child participate in sex education or even the first class where they basically cover nothing more than the body and the changes to expect during puberty. I'm going to take a guess here and wager that a larger percentage of the adult population engages in sex than in worshiping the Judeo Christian God. Like it or not, we do have freedom of religion in this country, so not everyone believes the same things. I respect other peoples' beliefs about religion and I would hope that others respect mine.
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Micki
I love teaching.
It is not about not respecting yours. Your child has the option to not say it. As a teacher I know that it wouldn't even be noticed if a child chose not to say it. You have the right to request that your child not participate in it. I would wager that the teacher would even find a way for your child to not be in the room if it was that much of an issue.

I think I am going to gracefully bow out on this topic because we both feel strongly about our children and their liberties. I want my children to never be ashamed of their belief in God. They should not be restricted from saying the pledge either. I feel that it is another way to persecute people of faith. I know that sounds harsh, but I sincerely feel that way, just like you feel that you don't want God in your home. I need God in my home and want my children to grow up feeling that their beliefs are valued too. With that being said, I didn't mean to offend you. We are just at polar opposites on this one.

Take care.
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Vanna White
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:52 PM
It is not about not respecting yours.  Your child has the option to not say it. 

My beliefs were NOT respected. My child was taught to say the Pledge with the words "under God" without my knowledge or permission. I really don't think a 5 year old is going to choose to not say words he has been taught to recite with his class. My son knew that he was expected to follow the teacher's directions.

Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:52 PM
just like you feel that you don't want God in your home.

I never said that and it is not true.
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Vanna White
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:52 PM
I want my children to never be ashamed of their belief in God.

Would they be ashamed if they did not say the Pledge with the words "under God" in school? I guess I don't understand that. I just said they should be able to pray in school if they want, or say "under God" as much as they want, I just don't think it should be a structured part of the class in any way (in public school.)

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Micki
I love teaching.
I'm sorry Vanna if I misunderstood. I sincerely got the impression that you felt that way. Sorry again.

Yes, if my kids had to omit God now then yes they would feel that they should be ashamed for their beliefs.
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry Vanna if I misunderstood. I sincerely got the impression that you felt that way. Sorry again.

Yes, if my kids had to omit God now then yes they would feel that they should be ashamed for their beliefs.

If my kids were suddenly told not to say the words 'under God' in the pledge, they most certainly would feel something is wrong with their God. They would wonder why it is suddenly not allowed--or respected.

If you don't believe in 'God', and you teach your child to omit that part of the pledge, you can teach your child your view of separation to support your views. You cannot teach your child not to feel bad, when something they've been taught to recite and respect is suddenly not allowed. They will feel bad regardless. You can't teach feelings--under your theory, you can teach separation.

If the leftists want the words 'under God' removed, they should start with Kindergarden and go from there.

BTW, I guess I can not be offended if I get into Michigan and have to walk by those footbaths, can I????!!!
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Vanna White
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Well...I think there certainly are other ways to handle things. Not sure why "suddenly" became the time line.

I hear that some classrooms within LPS say the Pledge and others do not. If a child says the Pledge (including the "under God" part) in 1st grade every morning and then in 2nd grade the teacher does not make that a part of the morning routine, will they be ashamed of their religion or think something is wrong with their God? I have to believe this happens with frequency in schools that allow teachers to choose. I have never heard of any children having a problem. Have any parents complained when there children are assigned to teachers that do not recite the Pledge daily?

What does God have to do with whether you are left or right or in between politically? I sure do know a lot of people with strong faith and belief...some are Democrats and some are Republicans and some are neither. I guess I don't see the relationship at all.
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Extra Olives
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Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:06 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 06:55 PM
Separation of church and state is not absence of God.

I have been really thinking about this phrase because I do believe that a segment of people are trying to stifle people that love and worship God. I have been stuck on the words separation of church and state and thinking about the distinctions and how it has become an excuse to leave God out altogether. I feel like there is a distinct difference between church and religion in this phrase. What are your thoughts?

My child should be allowed to say under God and yours can choose not to say it. This is a society that was formed on Judeo Christian beliefs. It may have been added later, but why was it added later?

I don't see how not saying "under God" in a Pledge to our NATION would be stifling anyone. No one is saying you cannot worship your God in any manner YOU choose. Just don't force my child to worship with you.
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Extra Olives
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Vanna White
Oct 12 2007, 07:45 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 07:06 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 06:55 PM
Separation of church and state is not absence of God.

I have been really thinking about this phrase because I do believe that a segment of people are trying to stifle people that love and worship God. I have been stuck on the words separation of church and state and thinking about the distinctions and how it has become an excuse to leave God out altogether. I feel like there is a distinct difference between church and religion in this phrase. What are your thoughts?

My child should be allowed to say under God and yours can choose not to say it. This is a society that was formed on Judeo Christian beliefs. It may have been added later, but why was it added later?

Your child should be able to say "under God" if she wants to. She should be able to say grace before eating lunch or say a prayer to herself during recess if she wants to. I have no problem with any of that. I teach my children to respect other people's religion. What I do have a problem with is when it becomes a regular portion of the day for all children, when it becomes a statement, pledge or words that all children are taught to memorize, when there is a time for prayer in the day or when/if a teacher or other adult tries to teach their faith to the children.

There were many years between when I attended school and when my kids started school. I remember saying the Pledge of Allegence up until 3rd grade at Cooper Elementary. When we moved north and I attended Clay Elementary, and we did not say the Pledge and I never said it again throughout the rest of my schooling.

When my kids started school, I never even considered that teachers would still have kids saying a Pledge with the words "under God." I guess I just assumed that they would not do that out of respect for the fact that not everyone believes in a god or they may chose to call their god Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Krishna or something else. I thought that we had moved beyond that in our schools.

Imagine my surprise when my child came home reciting the Pledge and the words "under God." Apparently he had been saying this for a while. I was not going to go up to the school and complain or ask that my child be singled out and not participate, but I was in fact offended that the school would intrude into my family like that by teaching such a thing to my child without my permission.

They make you sign a paper to have your child participate in sex education or even the first class where they basically cover nothing more than the body and the changes to expect during puberty. I'm going to take a guess here and wager that a larger percentage of the adult population engages in sex than in worshiping the Judeo Christian God. Like it or not, we do have freedom of religion in this country, so not everyone believes the same things. I respect other peoples' beliefs about religion and I would hope that others respect mine.

Well stated Vanna.
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Extra Olives
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Oct 12 2007, 08:54 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry Vanna if I misunderstood.  I sincerely got the impression that you felt that way.  Sorry again.

Yes, if my kids had to omit God now then yes they would feel that they should be ashamed for their beliefs.

If my kids were suddenly told not to say the words 'under God' in the pledge, they most certainly would feel something is wrong with their God. They would wonder why it is suddenly not allowed--or respected.

If you don't believe in 'God', and you teach your child to omit that part of the pledge, you can teach your child your view of separation to support your views. You cannot teach your child not to feel bad, when something they've been taught to recite and respect is suddenly not allowed. They will feel bad regardless. You can't teach feelings--under your theory, you can teach separation.

If the leftists want the words 'under God' removed, they should start with Kindergarden and go from there.

BTW, I guess I can not be offended if I get into Michigan and have to walk by those footbaths, can I????!!!

I don't know if it's just "leftists" who feel this way MCP. I also don't understand why your kids would feel bad about omitting "under God". Again, no one is saying they cannot believe in God. Those words just don't belong in a Pledge to our nation. Our nation is a land of many different religions. and by omitting "under God" merely is respectful of that. Especially when it is recited at public schools.
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Mrs.M
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My two cents. It's becoming more than just the pledge, it's the omission of any word or message that has the slightest religious overtone. i.e. The greeting Merry Christmas and having Christmas trees in our classes and referring to them as such. Holiday trees? I guess I could send a valentine card for that holiday in December you know which one. Or an Easter card, (no wait, that's a religious Holyday, although the date is determined based on the moon, which determines Ash Wednesday)

It's unfortunate - what has come to our schools and society overkill with being politically correct and sensitive to those who may have varying beliefs...

I agree, children are learning in the early grades that 'you don't talk about Church or God' in school. And the children understand it's a no-no, and that's sad. Interesting though in April and May you hear the buzz in the second grade..First Communion and that's good.

I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG.
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Vanna White
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I see a huge difference between kids talking about religion and teachers asking kids to say a pledge "under God." The kids SHOULD be allowed to speak freely about anything as long as they are not disrupting class or being vulgar.

As to holiday decorations, I have a differnt view. My kids have learned about a variety of religious, cultural and secular traditions at school...not just those of the Christian faith. As long as there is an inclusive atmosphere that welcomes decorations from all faiths, I think it should be allowed and I believe it is allowed, as long as we are talking about symbolic items rather than likenesses of a god or religious figure. Xmas trees are great, as are menorahs, kinaras, etc. Christ on a cross or a Buddah statue should not be allowed in my opinion.
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Nikki
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Vanna White
Oct 13 2007, 05:54 AM
I see a huge difference between kids talking about religion and teachers asking kids to say a pledge "under God."  The kids SHOULD be allowed to speak freely about anything as long as they are not disrupting class or being vulgar.

As to holiday decorations, I have a differnt view.  My kids have learned about a variety of religious, cultural and secular traditions at school...not just those of the Christian faith.  As long as there is an inclusive atmosphere that welcomes decorations from all faiths, I think it should be allowed and I believe it is allowed, as long as we are talking about symbolic items rather than likenesses of a god or religious figure.  Xmas trees are great, as are menorahs, kinaras, etc.  Christ on a cross or a Buddah statue should not be allowed in my opinion.

Menorah:

The menorah is said to represent the burning bush which Moses saw, as related in the Hebrew Bible. Historically there was a menorah used for ritualistic purposes in Jerusalem during the time of the Temple. During the season of Hanukkah, the nine-branched menorah, or hanukiah, is used. The lighting of the Hanukkah menorah comes from a story in the Talmud in which the Maccabees were attempting to dedicate the Holy Temple. They were chagrined to find enough oil only for one evening, but went ahead with the dedication anyway, and miraculously the small amount of oil lasted for a full eight days. The celebration of Hanukkah lasts for eight nights, with a new candle lit on each evening. The candles of the Hanukkah menorah are lit from the left to the right.

Christmas Trees:

Actually, the tree is a reinterpretation of pagan rites, along with the use of other greens and decorations to commemorate in ancient times a celebration of the feast of Saturnalia - the birth of the Sun in the sky at the Winter Solstice. Along with the giving of gifts, the feast was later Christianized with the selection of December 25th to announce the birth of the Son of God to the world.

The tree also tells the story of a cosmic event - a mystery. In personal celebrations of Christmas the tree begins its use in the 16th century, and is later brought to America by German immigrants.

Our decision must be either for our Christmas tree to represent the celebration of the birth of Christ, or simply an acknowledgment of the pagan festival of the Winter Solstice.


Kinara:

The kinara is the candle holder used in Kwanzaa celebrations in the United States. Its divergent shape represents the roots that African Americans have in continental Africa. During the week-long celebration of Kwanzaa, seven candles are placed in the kinara - three red on the left, three green on the right, and a single black candle in the center. The seven candles represent the Seven Principles (or Nguzo Saba) of Kwanzaa. Red, green, and black are the symbolic colors of the holiday.

Out of the three, I would say the Menora has the most religious significance. It's more than just a decoration.
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Extra Olives
Oct 12 2007, 09:56 PM
Major Card Player
Oct 12 2007, 08:54 PM
Micki
Oct 12 2007, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry Vanna if I misunderstood.  I sincerely got the impression that you felt that way.  Sorry again.

Yes, if my kids had to omit God now then yes they would feel that they should be ashamed for their beliefs.

If my kids were suddenly told not to say the words 'under God' in the pledge, they most certainly would feel something is wrong with their God. They would wonder why it is suddenly not allowed--or respected.

If you don't believe in 'God', and you teach your child to omit that part of the pledge, you can teach your child your view of separation to support your views. You cannot teach your child not to feel bad, when something they've been taught to recite and respect is suddenly not allowed. They will feel bad regardless. You can't teach feelings--under your theory, you can teach separation.

If the leftists want the words 'under God' removed, they should start with Kindergarden and go from there.

BTW, I guess I can not be offended if I get into Michigan and have to walk by those footbaths, can I????!!!

I don't know if it's just "leftists" who feel this way MCP. I also don't understand why your kids would feel bad about omitting "under God". Again, no one is saying they cannot believe in God. Those words just don't belong in a Pledge to our nation. Our nation is a land of many different religions. and by omitting "under God" merely is respectful of that. Especially when it is recited at public schools.

Sorry Olives, not meaning to offend with my 'leftest' label. I just don't know too many 'righty-tighty's' who would actually support the 'removal' of that phrase from the pledge.

Also, to give you my reasoning...

Most children that have become accustom to saying 'under God' in the pledge would automatically assume something is wrong with those words (or any words) simple by the grand gesture of removal. I'm thinking about it from a kid's perspective. Little kids don't have the cognitive reasoning skills to understand that 'there is nothing wrong with saying it, but it must be removed because of separation of church and state issues.'

'God is not bad, but we can't talk about him or even say his name in the pledge'--total contradiction in a kid's mind.
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Mrs.M
Oct 12 2007, 10:42 PM
My two cents. It's becoming more than just the pledge, it's the omission of any word or message that has the slightest religious overtone. i.e. The greeting Merry Christmas and having Christmas trees in our classes and referring to them as such. Holiday trees? I guess I could send a valentine card for that holiday in December you know which one. Or an Easter card, (no wait, that's a religious Holyday, although the date is determined based on the moon, which determines Ash Wednesday)

It's unfortunate - what has come to our schools and society overkill with being politically correct and sensitive to those who may have varying beliefs...

I agree, children are learning in the early grades that 'you don't talk about Church or God' in school. And the children understand it's a no-no, and that's sad. Interesting though in April and May you hear the buzz in the second grade..First Communion and that's good.

I agree Mrs. M. I would like to hear Vanna and Olive's perspective on the labor aspect of these holidays.

Do either of you feel that paid/unpaid holidays should be afforded to gov't employees? If we are not going to allow the words 'Christmas break, trees, etc' in the schools(or displays at city hall, etc), then why afford gov't employees time off for these holidays? After all, they are christian holidays--why subject gov't employees to having to take time off to celebrate these 'christian' beliefs.

Seems like a huge(and convenient) double standard to me.
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