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| Pledge of Allegiance | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 13 2007, 08:52 PM (5,879 Views) | |
| Spanky | Sep 19 2007, 10:21 PM Post #61 |
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I have a few logs for this fire
I am not being facetious or sarcastic in any way and I certainly don't want to offend. They are just some thoughts I had after reading a few days worth on this thread.........What if the our Pledge of Allegiance said "........one nation, under a clear blue sky, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", would that be better? Would most people not have a problem letting their children say the Pledge? I can honestly say that in my life I have never, ever thought of the Pledge as a religious thing or an oath to God. I have always felt it to be a pledge to our great country. In a loose way, kind of like marriage vows to love and honor (for lack of a better example!) I feel our flag represents our country (not God) and all the freedoms we enjoy and should in some small way, be acknowledged and respected. When you see another country burning our flag, you do not see them burning a picture of God along side it. They are usually burning a picture of our president and our flag together. They both represent our country. The flag represents our country in the Olympics, too. Were you offended when they raised the flag on the Pentagon, in Shanksville, and on the buildings surrounding the Twin Towers on that horrible day in September of 2001? It actually made me feel good to see those flags flying. To me it was just a sign to the rest of the world that we were still strong. My two cents. |
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| Extra Olives | Sep 19 2007, 10:26 PM Post #62 |
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The Pledge of Allegience didn't originally contain the words "under God". They were added in the 1950's. I think they should have left it alone. |
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| Spanky | Sep 20 2007, 07:14 AM Post #63 |
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I didn't know that. I wonder if people would not be so hesitant to say it if it said ".....one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"? |
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| BoaterDan | Sep 20 2007, 08:41 AM Post #64 |
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I can't say I entirely disagree with you. I didn't know it was added so recently. Something I found on the matter: It was inserted by Congress only in 1954 at the request of President Eisenhower. Doing so, he said, would, "strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in war and peace." But, there's an interesting alternative thing about this to consider from an academic/historical perspective... doesn't the fact that Congress made this change, and it wasn't immediately shot down by the Supreme Court, pretty much destroy the idea that this country was founded on the principle of freedom (or absolute separation) from religion? It no doubt enraged atheists in 1954, but the idea behind the language was apparently mainstream enough that they were written off as a kook fringe. Again, I'm not saying that was right or even constitutional, but the historical reality is quite different from what activists on this issue would have you believe. |
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| Extra Olives | Sep 20 2007, 11:47 AM Post #65 |
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This country wasn't founded on the concept of freedom from religion. It was founded on the belief that the government has no place in matters of religion and that we, as citizens, are free to worship whomever and whatever in any manner we choose. George Washimgton and Thomas Jefferson were themselves "nonbelievers" of God. The words "under God" and "in God we trust" have no place in our pledge or on our currency. That does not mean religion does not have a place in our lives. It means we are free to practice our religion as we choose. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 7 2007, 09:03 AM Post #66 |
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The Pledge of Allegiance A Short History by Dr. John W. Baer Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897). Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex. The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston. In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.' His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ] Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.' In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored. In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there. What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge: It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people... The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future? Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all... If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes. Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.' A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.' http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm |
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| Vanna White | Oct 7 2007, 11:30 AM Post #67 |
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I like this version the best. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 7 2007, 05:08 PM Post #68 |
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I like it the way it is! |
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| dlewis984 | Oct 8 2007, 07:22 PM Post #69 |
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I think it is essential that US school say the pledge. We risk losing our identity as a nation. Many other countries are much more patriotic then America. I love that children say the pledge at school. |
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| Micki | Oct 9 2007, 09:28 PM Post #70 |
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I love teaching.
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Me too. I think it is important that students are allowed to say Under God in the pledge. In a democratic society schools are supposed to reflect their populations and the population in this district and most in the United States is that there is some belief that there is a God. That doesn't mean they believe the same things about God, but they acknowledge the existence of a higher power. |
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| Vanna White | Oct 9 2007, 09:30 PM Post #71 |
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What about those that do not believe in God? |
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| Micki | Oct 10 2007, 08:24 AM Post #72 |
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I love teaching.
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In a truly democratic society the majority rules on matters that pertain to education. Those that don't believe can opt to not say it. That is their right. But the other 20+ kids in the classroom that do believe and agree should not have their rights taken away because of a few people that don't want to say it. In that case they are being discriminated against as well. |
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| Vanna White | Oct 10 2007, 09:12 AM Post #73 |
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Actually, we do not live in a democracy. We are in a constitutional republic and while we certainly do hold many democratic values, the majority does not always rule. There are times when the majority can be wrong (think slavery) and it is more important to protect the rights of citizens, who sometimes actually need protection from the majority. |
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| Mrs.M | Oct 10 2007, 12:09 PM Post #74 |
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this phrase is beginning to lose some of its gusto |
| I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be WRONG. | |
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| Vanna White | Oct 10 2007, 02:24 PM Post #75 |
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In what way? |
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| Micki | Oct 10 2007, 05:45 PM Post #76 |
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I love teaching.
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We also do things that benefit all students and all families and we do hold democratic values as important whether or not we are a true democracy, which by the way I did know. I believe my argument was lost on you... sorry. I'll give up for now. |
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| Vanna White | Oct 10 2007, 06:01 PM Post #77 |
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I don't think your point was lost. I just disagree with you. We can agree to disagree. |
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| Extra Olives | Oct 10 2007, 10:00 PM Post #78 |
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The Pleadge of Allegience is to the FLAG and our COUNTRY, not God. No one is telling anyone they cannot worship, pray, etc. in whatever way they choose. Just don't put it in the Pladge or any other government related documents. It doesn't belong there. To say people would be discriminated against by taking out those two words is ridculous. |
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| Vanna White | Oct 10 2007, 10:26 PM Post #79 |
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Discrimination is not based on numbers. It is not a majority rules situation. When it happens, it is most often the minority that is the victim. You would not accept if a classroom of white children and one black child were asked to pledge their allegence to the flag under the white race, would you? Why not? Because it would be offensive to the black child. According to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, discrimination can be based on color (race,) sex (gender,) national origin or religion. There are other laws that protect against discrimination based on age, pregnancy, disability veteren status, familial status and in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation. |
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| crazy_cat | Oct 12 2007, 12:44 PM Post #80 |
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I would agree. Dearborn Public Schools just had two days off to observe a Muslim holiday. |
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I am not being facetious or sarcastic in any way and I certainly don't want to offend. They are just some thoughts I had after reading a few days worth on this thread.........





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