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| Tweet Topic Started: May 19 2016, 01:43 PM (2,542 Views) | |
| Clockwork | Jun 6 2016, 09:36 PM Post #46 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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There are exceptions. Big sauropods are Earth because they are practically landmasses unto themselves. Earth is weird in that the way the game has developed, the most prominent cards (sauropods) are not the most representatove cards (ankylosaurs). That doesn't make armor less earthy. We have been talking about "type charts" in the staff room, though Metal has gone unmentioned entirely (as in, completely entirely, never brought up as a potential attribute, in the site's entire history). Nature is just as elemental as grass in Pokémon, both representing more or less the same concept. And that is one of the core three elements of that entire franchise. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 08:39 AM Post #47 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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Thinking back, I will concede that the original definition definitely seems to have been "things with armor" (Hence why so many old cards that would be Earth attributes today are Nature attributes). However, once again, I bring up the likes of therizinosaurs, proto-mammals and also a ton of fully fledged mammals. There's a ton of Earth attributes that are neither armored, nor absolutely huge. Heck. I'd argue that something like Brontomerus doesn't seem big enough to qualify as a walking mountain, even though it's a sauropod. It seems to me that Earth has long moved on from its original meaning. Metal seems like a perfect candidate for an element that harkens back to what Earth was originally associated with. I personally think Metal is a much more fitting element for heavily armored creatures than Earth.
I know that. But grass doesn't seem much more elemental than bug or poison. Not that I'm complaining about that. I have no problem with there being a grass type. But you know what Pokemon also has? A steel type. If you're using Pokemon as an example of why the Nature attribute is justified, then I see no reason why having a Metal attribute is not justified. Edit: Also, though it might be minor and I'm not sure if this is actually relevant, I feel the need to point out that the elements are often referred to as "attributes" instead of "elements". This makes sense, given that some of the attributes (Like the aforementioned Apocalypse, Poison and Nature attributes) are hardly proper elements. |
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| Clockwork | Jun 7 2016, 02:49 PM Post #48 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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Things with armor are Earth, but Earth isn't just things with armor. Desert animals are also Earth, as are burrowers; the latter most likely being the justification for the only Earth therizinosaur I know of. I will agree that there are some Earth cards I would not have made Earth, but elements are at the discretion of the card's maker so such inconsistencies may arise. Ultimately if we think something is sufficiently earthy, there is isn’t a real problem with making it Earth. I am using Pokémon as an example of why I disagree with you on Nature not seeming elemental, because it is one of the core elemental types. There are many Pokémon types that are clearly not elemental, including your aforementioned bugs, punching things, literal evil, explicity mundane, and, yes, metal. Attributes is the "official" terminology but element is used frequently, and in official locations. As for Poison, it is non-elemental (and I am strongly against considering it one of the core attributes as opposed to a side one like Death) but it is something that is actually mechanically different. Metal really isn’t different mechanically from Earth, they do the exact same thing, they just have different w/r which aren't static anyways. “average attribute has 3 non-elemental cards a year" factoid actualy (sic) just statistical error. average attribute has 0 non-elemental cards per year. Apocalypse Georg, who lives on meteor & has over 10,000 each day, is an outlier adn should not have been counted” |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 03:35 PM Post #49 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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I see. The does bring to mind the question of what attribute those herbivores who don't really fit into the current definitions of Earth, Nature or Lightning should be. Perhaps Nature could have its definition expanded so that those cards could be included into it? I mean, it's not like Earth NEEDS more cards.
And I disagree, as I fail to see how "plant type" is elemental. Perhaps this is a subjective matter.
I always figured Metal would be more defensive than Earth, being more about taking (next to) no damage whilst wearing the opponent down, whilst Earth would be... well, pretty much the sauropod way: go big, or go home. Though I can see how their functions are similar enough to be lobbed into the same attribute. I mean, I can see that the way CB currently is, Metal doesn't really have much of a place. But CB is about to go through a big change, introducing the likes of *redacted* and changing the *redacted*. Clearly, just because CB works just fine at the moment doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon. With how rampant the Earth and Water attributes are, I just feel like there could be a split to make their numbers more even with those of other attributes, and Metal and Ice already exist in the MMORPG, so clearly some liking has been taken to them (Especially considering the sheer number of requests to add them to the TCG). I feel like they would fit in just fine with only a few minor adjustments. I just feel like the site could benefit from these.
I don't even, what. I am confused. |
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| Clockwork | Jun 7 2016, 03:54 PM Post #50 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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Nature's definition is generic herbivores, so there is really no need for it to be expanded, it already does that. It apparently is subjective, yes. Strictly speaking, you have things backwards. Sauropods are mountainous so they have frequently become Earth, but their playstyle is part of what is supposed to be Nature's shtick. Earth is damage reduction tanks, Nature is tons of health tanks. Jeez, how much is Sigma spoiling We are working on distributing would-be Earths and Waters more, and we are doing so without resorting to new attributes. Those elements in the MMO work because the cards aren't the actual animals, they are magic modified versions. We can make an actual robot dinosaur, it's fine. We don't have robots here. There are too little cards that would conceivably be either Ice or Metal to justify them as being distinct. The point of that bit is that Apocalypse is totally its own thing and shouldn't be used as an example for justifying anything. And also I am meme trash. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 04:08 PM Post #51 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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SEEGMA WAI DEED U NOT INCLUUDE DIES WEN YOU GAVE ME ELEMENT CHART?!
Also, that seems really weird, having the tree type be supposed to have more HP than the "95% of what the planet's made of" type.
I'd hardly call it spoiling if I was the one who either thought of it, or helped refine it. ![]()
![]() I disagree. Using the definitions I suggested, you could probably at least half the population of the Earth attribute, and probably reduce the amount of Water attributes by a notable amount as well.
Got it. |
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| Clockwork | Jun 7 2016, 04:22 PM Post #52 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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We would do more than halve the Earth attribute, we would completely change it so that it is "Earth but not called Earth" and "Nature but not called Nature", with no actual justification in doing so other than "too many Earths" and "lol i want new element". Water would lose a few cards and be more or less unaffected. Neither, I feel, is overpopulated enough to justify separating them for the sake of separating them. And yes, I would absolutely call it spoiling if you have any idea of what will happen instead of things that Sig said "that sounds cool i will suggest it to the others" to. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 04:47 PM Post #53 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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Well, on the positive side, it adds a more concrete definition to the attribute, and doesn't lead to the confusion of having 2 creatures with the same physical attributes and also pretty much the same attacks and abilities being different attributes because "eh, I felt like it". I'd say a strict, obvious system is better than something so ambiguous that for the past several years, a crud load of cards have apparently been assigned to the wrong attribute. Also adding new attributes will probably have a positive effect, especially if you're trying to revitalise a site that was dead for, what, 2 years? Besides that it of course opens a whole new real of possibilities. And it's not like adding types is a bad idea. (In most cases at least.)
Well then you might be happy to know that I still don't know the specific mechanics that will be implemented in the final revisions. Anyway, I feel like this discussion could end up going on for a lot longer than it needs to. I've given my input, and you'll be able to see what can be done with the attributes when I post my next batch. I'm not interested in having this discussion drag on for the next 6 days, so I think it's better if we call it quits. If the rest of the staff wants to consider adding new attributes, then discuss away then I guess you can continue the discussion. If not, then whatever, I won't care too much if my ideas are rejected. |
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| Clockwork | Jun 7 2016, 08:12 PM Post #54 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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man i was having fun, smfh nobody appreciates the entertainment value of a pointlessly extended debate these days I'll just leave then, with the assertion that cards haven't been "assigned to the wrong attribute." Cards fit into Earth because they are armored, or live in the desert, or dig, or seem earthy enough for the maker to put them in Earth. It is much better to have oddballs than to have a static system where theropods beat sauropods beat pterosaurs beat ankylosaurs beat theropods. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 08:17 PM Post #55 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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I was referring to how all recent sauropods (Even those that aren't all that big) have been assigned to the Earth attribute even though you said they should primarily be Nature attributes. Also, given how the cards I have posted here that feature the icons have their weaknesses and resistances based of my type chart (Which is hardly an absolute. The weaknesses and resistances often vary from whichever specific card you're talking about), I think it's hard to say that there's a static system of what type of dinosaur beats what type of dinosaur. |
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| Clockwork | Jun 7 2016, 08:28 PM Post #56 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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They aren't primarily Nature, really, they just play as Nature cards. The bigger they go, the more likely they are to be Earth, and naturally the biggest ones are the most likely to be made into cards because they're awesome. A chart that isn’t absolute isn’t a chart, honestly. Which is good. But most cards will still have W/R based on their elemental relationships due to lack of sufficient factors otherwise, so if every type of card falls into one atteibute, aside from still be boring it definitely runs the risk of becoming rock-paper-stego. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 7 2016, 08:34 PM Post #57 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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Ah I see.
Again, I refer you to the variety of w/r combinations seen on this thread.
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| DarkGricer | Jun 8 2016, 01:08 PM Post #58 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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Alright big batch introducing Metal and Ice, let's go. First, let's start with an updated card that I was of course going to update now. ![]() The new and improved Technosaurus! In terms of attacks and abilities, it has not changed. But of course it is now a Metal attribute. You might also notice it has an E icon behind its name as well as no weaknesses. That is because the E icon is an icon that indicates it's an Epic card! Yes, Technosaurus is hardly what comes to mind when you think of Epic cards. But it's an *EFF*ing robot archosaur that has its very own Move card! It's not exactly your average prehistoric card either! And now for 2 cards I forgot to post earlier. ![]() The original priority user has been revitalised. This thing is a killing machine that cannot simply be ignored. Defensively, it is utter crap and it will struggle to take hits from any half decent card. But with its speed and offense, it can tear through a weakened deck with ease. ![]() We've all had those moments when a card you really wanted gone got away with just a teeeeeeeeny bit of HP. And that's why this is a thing now Though not ridiculously powerful, Seeking Swarm can deal the finishing blow on your opponents retreated cards, or alternatively just weaken them further. It's pretty neat. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. ![]() Australovenator is an anti-Ice Ice attribute, capable of dispatching them pretty easily. Dash is another useful tool, allowing it to dispatch said Ice attributes (Or anything else it can murder, really) without taking any damage itself. However, similar to Giant Cheetah's Hasten, it also prevents retreat. ![]() This card was definitely not designed as a Crystal attribute. Definitely. So uh, yeah. Styracosaurus does a lot of the pokey-pokey stuff. Spiked Frill generally gives it a free turn to murder stuff. And combined with Aggression Spike, anything that tries to murder Styracosaurus is in for some serious pain. Piercing Spear's effect also means armor can only get you so far. ![]() Charge counter: ![]() No effect on its own. Brontotitan is pretty much just a powerhouse. Its got decent bulk, and Ultrashock's power rivals that of the attacks of many of prehistory's larger sauropods. But Brontotitan's true strength comes from tis ability to lock down its target. With enough Charge counters, Ultrashock can keep Brontotitan's target locked down for a loooong time. ![]() (Note: If the effect from Disguise is broken, retreating Cutilamia and sending it back out will reactivate it.) I found this a pretty interesting card. Disguise it a pretty good reason to keep something that can hurt your own side of the field around, because it can be pretty nasty otherwise. 360 Eyesight might not be the best ability for a card like Cutilamia, but it can be very useful when combined with Chaos Effect. ![]() Everyone loves Savage, even when it's murdering your own cards. Sitting there with that nice new Metal attribute, Savage is a tank. Its solid defense is only managed by its sheer unrelenting offense. But when it gets low on HP, its rage gets a bit out of control. On the positive side, Limb Tear is a potent attack, getting stronger the bigger Savage's collection of severed limbs becomes. ![]() Perittoforeas will always be recognised for having an absolutely ridiculous amount of attack power for its size. Naturally, it's true here as well. Horrid Scent and Armor Layers give it a solid defense, at least in single battles. In multi-battles, it is quite a bit easier to break through. But Doomclasper remains a very, very threatening attack that can one-shot a lot of things. ![]() Classic Kreafourio. Very tanky with a lot of power, but it doesn't really do anything else. But hey, it's got an amusing attack name. ![]() ![]() I had no idea what attribute to make this thing. I just figured Wind is the closest we have to a "sound" attribute. Anyway, Resothanator is all about the ol' one-two. On its own, Sound Beam is a very underwhelming attack. But combined with Take Aim, it can deal some serious damage. Luckily for it, Resothanator has all the tanky-ness it needs to survive taking 2 turns to get a half decent attack off. ![]() Dracarchigos, the dragon chief of darkness. It's kind of a jerk, really. In between its immunity to some abilities, preventing enemy attacks, or just flat out dodging them and having a potential instant kill attack, it's pretty nasty. Reliable? Absolutely not. But certainly nasty. ![]() This card is best summarised as a delayed Aqua Devastator with no collateral damage. It is good for taking care of particularly tough cards. But due to the fact that it's not instant, it won't stop them from still dealing some serious damage before they go down. And now, last but not least... ![]() Ability wise, Megacastrum is not all too impressive compared to other Epic cards. But holy hell is Mega Assault a swiss army knife of an attack! It can deal damage in 4 different attributes, with each having a different effect. Metal is the standard, with not very impressive effects, but unlimited uses. Fire, Lightning and Water though, while they can only be used twice each per battle, they've got some powerful secondary effects. I mean, heck. The squirt gun OHKO's 2 out of prehistory's "epic three". That's some firepower, er... waterpower. |
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| DarkGricer | Jun 10 2016, 10:23 AM Post #59 |
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Definitely an official card maker... Trust me, I am...
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No prehistoric cards today. Just a bit more GI and the first myth cards on this thread. Also I finally recolored the Light icon to the color it should'v been in the first place. ![]() Immovable Object - Innate Biohazard - Innate This Akinitherium might look a little familiar. And that's probably because there wasn't really much room for improvement on my old Akinitherium concept. I mean, it did exactly what Akinitherium does. Be a tank. Passively kill things. Never die. Just be happy I decided not to use the HP calculator I usually use for my cards, otherwise this thing would've had pretty much about the same amount of HP as Skulltank before the nerf. ![]() Hell - Innate Pain and Pleasure - Innate Cripple Counter: For every Cripple Counter on a card, it deals 15% less damage, up to a maximum of 90%. Oh look, PLS is back. Demonarchon certainly is a tricky card to deal with. Hell passively lowers your opponent's damage output every turn, whilst Pain and Pleasure gives it more sustain for every Cripple counter on the field. It's a vicious cycle. Luckily, Torture doesn't deal a whole lot of damage. Then again, it also helps feed the cycle, so that's probably not so good after all. Now onto the myth cards. ![]() Dragon Transformation - Innate Relentless Pursuit - Innate Starting off we have Kiyohime, a *shudders* human... until she turns into a dragon/serpent/whatever. Appropriately, she's kid of a crappy card starting out, but if she survives for a full turn, you've got a powerhouse that can go toe-to-toe (Does she even HAVE toes as a dragon?) with a lot of cards! And she's got quite the determination. Once she picks her target, it's not getting away so easily. ![]() Boundless Hunger - Innate Winter's Herald - Innate WEEEEEENDIIIIIIGOOOOO! It is the first of many things. Both the first Dark AND Death attribute on the thread, the first triple attributed card on the thread and the first card that loves to murder its allies on this thread, wait what. As impractical as it may seem to feast on your own allies, the Wendigo makes it work. Once its allies are beginning to stand on their last legs, the Wendigo can snipe the kill from its opponents to give itself a big buff (Especially if its allies are powerhouses like Amphicoelias), after which it should be able to get the remaining strength it needs from massacring the enemy. Additionally, the longer it stays alive, the more damage it will deal passively. This is a card you do not want to mess with. ![]() Kakure Oni - Innate Oni Ni Kanabo - Innate (This ability does not activate when using a Stage card) Thin Line - Innate After such monstrosities, it's time to take a break and look at something that, while still respectable card, is less prone to roflstomping half your deck. Oni is a pretty interesting card. It has the useful trait of being untargetable until it attacks, as well as gaining a buff when using Move cards. Thin Line add a little versatility, allowing it to either heal its allies or more easily crush its enemies every turn. ![]() Unstoppable Undead - Innate Exponential Growth - Normal And we're back to nightmarishly tough abominations. Like its mythological counterpart, you can't just defeat a Draugr by hitting it over and over again. Only certain things will do the trick. To make it worse, it can grow at will and can quickly spiral out of control. ![]() Fierce Guardian - Innate Finally, we have a Taniwha! A bit more of a support-ish card, it still packs a punch nonetheless. With its high HP, it has no problem soaking up a couple of hits. And once it gets low, Swallow allows it to recover some HP... through murder... |
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| Clockwork | Jun 10 2016, 03:10 PM Post #60 |
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"Yeah, I like that meme." -Clockwork, 2016
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No, partially because she doesn't transform into a dragon. She transforms into a serpent that breathes fire, which is naturally confused as a dragon by over-excited foreigners who fail to consider such subtleties. To my knowledge, a Japanese dragon would not be breathing fire. |
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